Relics

[TomS]

Wow. This is the fundamentalist Protestant view on salvation and works... If one didn't/doesn't understand this, how (and not why, but how) could one leave Protestantism for the Church?

Well, then maybe I don't understand the Orthodox version of how one attains salvation. I know that we are always striving to be one with God, but are you saying that if we believe in Christ, ask for his forgiveness, live a Christian life, that that is still not enough?

Please point me to some on-line reading material that would help me understand what is wrong with my statement.

Cause remember - I am GOA - and the article on the GOA website states: "... yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity."
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/artic ... le8089.asp

So when I prayed for my father to be healed of cancer, what could I have done to heal him that would've backed up my prayer?

The same thing that I did when my father was dying of cancer - take him to his treatments, provide emotional support, and during his last few months, administer his pain shots and his TPN's.

... or B) God, while being immutable in one sense, allows Himself to be influenced by us, as a father allows himself to be swayed by his children. In the end, it doesn't matter whether or not you understand immutability, IMO...are you a son (cf. Gal. 4.4-7)? That is the question.

I agree with B. BUT, God STILL has his plan and sometimes it cannot be changed for a single person if it is required to bring about the outcome of the plan.

[Mor Ephrem]

Well, then maybe I don't understand the Orthodox version of how one attains salvation. I know that we are always striving to be one with God, but are you saying that if we believe in Christ, ask for his forgiveness, live a Christian life, that that is still not enough?

Please point me to some on-line reading material that would help me understand what is wrong with my statement.

I guess what I took issue with was when you said "Salvation is there for the asking. It's initially internal; then your outward actions should reflect your salvation." It smacked too much of the "nothing you do, no works of yours can gain you salvation, but when you are saved, of course you will do good works" stuff I have heard from Protestants. I have no problems with the first part of that, but good works don't necessarily follow, not even from the Protestant "saved". Believing in Christ, asking His forgiveness, and living the life in Christ? I agree with you there.

I am sorry that I don't know where to refer you online for an exposition on the Orthodox doctrine of salvation. I'm sure someone else will have something to recommend.

The same thing that I did when my father was dying of cancer - take him to his treatments, provide emotional support, and during his last few months, administer his pain shots and his TPN's.

Yes, but there is only so much of this you can do when you're 14. That is why, while there is no excuse for not doing what is needful when you are able to do it, I do not blindly subscribe to "God helps those who help themselves". There are people who may not be in a position to do even this, and yet God is there for them.

BUT, God STILL has his plan and sometimes it cannot be changed for a single person if it is required to bring about the outcome of the plan.

But how do we know what is change? That is why we should pray...we cannot possibly see the whole picture. It is possible that we can pray and pray and not receive what we pray for. It is also possible that God wants us to pray for X so He can grant us X and be glorified in it. In the end, "Thy will be done". But this is different from "fate" or "what will happen will happen".

[George Australia]

But still, you haven't answered: Does God use inanimate, created objects such as handkerchiefs, aprons, spittle (Mark 7:27, 8:23), mud, water etc to convey His healing power and sanctification?

How should I know?

You should know from the Scriptures Tom. According to the Scriptures, all these objects listed above, and more, are used by God to convey His Divine Grace- as are objects such as the Elements of the Divine Eucharist, Holy Water, Holy Myrrh, Antidoron, Icons and Relics of the Saints etc. Because of the Incarnation, Creation is sancified and can sanctify- bread and wine become the Divine Body and Precious Blood of Our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Similarly, Relics of the Saints are not merely 'mementos'- they are Sanctified objects which convey Grace, just as the aprons and handkechiefs touched by St. Paul conveyed Grace. Just as Christ's spittle and the mud He applied to the Blind Man's eyes conveyed Grace.

Well, then maybe I don't understand the Orthodox version of how one attains salvation. I know that we are always striving to be one with God, but are you saying that if we believe in Christ, ask for his forgiveness, live a Christian life, that that is still not enough?

No Tom, it is not enough. Unlike the protestants, the Orthodox are never sure of their salvation until they are in Paradise. And don't bother looking online or in books for an understanding of the Orthodox view of Salvation- it is a spiritual war as St. Paul describes. One does not 'study' Orthodox spirituality; rather, it is a knowledge attained through difficult struggle against oneself and the enemy of souls.
It is not 'enough' to 'live a Christian life', unless we truly live a Christian life- and 'Christian' means "Christ-like".
A Christian keeps the commandments of Christ who said: "If you love Me, keep My commandments." One of Christ's commandments in the Scriptures is: "Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect." When we are perfect Tom, as Christ commands us to be, then that will be 'enough'. But I am far from perfect, and so I join the continuous prayer of the Orthodox Church:
"Lord, have mercy! Lord, have mercy! Lord, have mercy!"

[Schism Jumper]

The act of praying to Christ already is working for your salvation. We need no one else but Christ.

Certainly we all have to give account for ourselves, and no other person can jump "save us" if we have ourselves rejected God. Still, aren't there passages in the Scripture which seem to indicate that God sometimes uses people, and even inantimate objects, as vehicles for bestowing grace and bringing individuals to salvation? I'm not aware of any articles on this subject, but perhaps in addition to the verses already mentioned, the following will be helpful:

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." - 1 Tim. 4:16

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." - James 5:19-20

"Sometimes too by the virtue of compassion and faith the stains of sin are removed, according to this passage: 'By compassion and faith sins are purged away.' And often by the conversion and salvation of those who are saved by our warnings and preaching: 'For he who converts a sinner from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and cover a multitude of sins'" - Saint John Cassian, Conferences, 20, 8

[savva26]

How did the handkerchiefs and aprons which were touched by St. Paul carry the power to heal the sick and exorcise demons? (Acts 19:11-12)

"Now God worked unusual miracles by the hand of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them." Acts 19:11-12

St. Paul was alive.

[/quote]

Well, the Prophet Elisha wasn't alive when a dead man touched his bones and was raised from the dead [IV Kings 13: 20-21].

Question to moderators: I haven't been here much lately but I used to have an account as savva23. I can't access it anymore. I guess that since I don't participate here as much as I used to my account died. Is that how it works? Oh well guess I am back to being a Hobo

Nicholas (savva)

[TomS]

Savva,

There was a hiccup with the Users table in the database (I suspect) -- see the "Important - please read" at the top of the page.

[joasia]

As to the conversation about prayers and whether they work or not...

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, cause I skimmed through the last two pages...

But, God DOES answer our prayers, everytime...it's just that we are looking for a specific answer or outcome and don't seem to realize the answer He gives us. It's like we're looking in the wrong direction. But, one day...it will dawn on us, when we look back, that the prayer WAS answered. And sometimes, God answers it at a different time, so we are looking for it at the wrong time and think it was never answered. Or He is slowly answering it over a long period of time, but it's too sutle for us to realize it. That's why it's so important to keep our hearts open to receive His response, otherwise we'll miss it all together and then develop a belief that God doesn't answer prayers.

And sometimes His answer is simply, no.... Why? Because He says so. He knows what's best for us. But, we have to accept that answer.

Why wouldn't He respond to us? He died for us, didn't He?

Tom, prayer is a spiritual telephone line to God. The act of praying is like picking up the receiver and dialing the number...by the way, God is always on the other end....no call waiting, no voice mail and it's hands-free. Some people like to call His mother or one of his dedicated servants, depending on how they feel spiritually and their personal situation, but God has all the lines bugged anyways.

I like to call the Theotokos. She always leaves me with a little joy and calm (when I'm panicked) in my heart. I don't know why that happens. But for some reason, my heart feels less burdened, like I can now handle the worries that troubled me.

But, you seem to just be looking at the phone and stating that it doesn't work, it just sits there and does nothing. Then when you leave, it rings, but you can't hear it. When you come back, it's still just sitting there. Don't make yourself nuts about it...just pick up the phone and dial. I, personally, take a spiritual cellular....I never leave home without it. hehe.

Sorry for the long-winded commentary...I feel kinda silly tonight. It's a good silly.