Relics

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Tue 30 November 2004 12:13 pm

I wasn't comparing religious fervor...I was merely suggesting that you do not have an appropriate outlet at home for your frustrations. You seem to be troubled.

As for only going to church on holidays (as my old Priest called it,
the "C & E Christians") and not going to communion for some 20 years..well, that sounds about typical for people in the GOA.

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Tue 30 November 2004 12:45 pm

Natasha wrote:
I wasn't comparing religious fervor...I was merely suggesting that you do not have an appropriate outlet at home for your frustrations. You seem to be troubled.

"appropriate outlet at home for your frustrations." Well, I don't agree with you -- But let's suppose you are correct. Do you think it is appropriate for a person work his/her frustrations out in the home? And if so, how would you recommend this be done?

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Tue 30 November 2004 1:12 pm

Now its my turn to laugh Tom...my whole family is Russian, so we can scream and yell at each other, get everything out, and 10 minutes later kiss and make up! I don't know how well that would work for you!

Schultz · Post by **Schultz** » Tue 30 November 2004 1:27 pm

TomS wrote:
OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:
TomS,

The Orthodox believe that Jesus the Son will listen to His mother (and His saints); It is therefore most helpful to pray to Panagia and ask her for her Son’s mercy. This by itself is working for your salvation.

The act of praying to Christ already is working for your salvation. We need no one else but Christ.

Tom,

While we don't need anyone other than Christ, we are also commanded to pray for one another:

Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16

For someone who put so much stock in God telling St. Peter to "kill and eat" as a commandment for not being a vegetarian, you're surely picking and choosing to not put as much stock in this verse from the most practical of all the Epistles of the NT.

As St. Paul wrote elsewhere, we are surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses who cheer us on, so to speak, and pray for us that we finish the race (Hebrews 12:1-2). We most assuredly can and should ask them for their prayers, especially the Theotokos, who, we cannot forget, is a Jewish mother and we all know what Jewish women can do to their children!

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Tue 30 November 2004 1:27 pm

Natasha wrote:
Now its my turn to laugh Tom...my whole family is Russian, so we can scream and yell at each other, get everything out, and 10 minutes later kiss and make up! I don't know how well that would work for you!

But I have no need to do that. I can debate/question without becoming emotional.

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Tue 30 November 2004 5:34 pm

Good for you Tom.

I like to think that getting "emotional" is healthy, thank goodness I wasn't brought up in an uptight waspy family where everything is a big secret (I am sure we all know families like that).

Mor Ephrem · Post by **Mor Ephrem** » Tue 30 November 2004 6:57 pm

TomS wrote:
What would you need to change in your EXTERNAL life for salvation? Salvation is there for the asking. It's initially internal; then your outward actions should reflect your salvation.

Wow. This is the fundamentalist Protestant view on salvation and works, from how some of them have explained it to me. It's one thing to get mixed up on Mary or the saints, relics, icons, etc., but salvation? If one didn't/doesn't understand this, how (and not why, but how) could one leave Protestantism for the Church?

"God helps those who help themselves" You cannot JUST pray for something and expect it to happen. You have to back it up with action. And those actions along with your faith CAN help change things.

So when I prayed for my father to be healed of cancer, what could I have done to heal him that would've backed up my prayer?

Many times, we must cooperate with God, praying for AND working toward what we desire, but other times one can only pray. Genuine laziness is one thing, but you can't simply discount prayer when it's on its own.

But if it God's plan that you die of a heart attack tonight in your sleep, no amount of praying to wake up every morning will change that.

When we were learning about the immutability of God, I heard and pondered enough to make me think along the same lines as you. If God is as immutable as some make it seem, then there is no reason to pray, go to church, light candles, venerate relics, live the commandments, etc., etc., etc. I concluded that either A) I didn't fully understand the immutability of God or B) God, while being immutable in one sense, allows Himself to be influenced by us, as a father allows himself to be swayed by his children. In the end, it doesn't matter whether or not you understand immutability, IMO...are you a son (cf. Gal. 4.4-7)? That is the question.