+The path of fasting leads to the path of purity. Fasting is the cutting off of lust and evil thoughts, the purity of prayer, the illumination of the soul, the guarding fo the mind, the deliverance from hardness of heart, the door to contrition, the occasion for silence, the health of the body, freedom from the passions, the remission of sins.
--St. John Climacus (579-649 A.D.)
Fasting
user_22 I posted a reply earlier which appears to have vanished, a mystery!
Elders, gerontas,
Those turned to for spiritual advice, guidance and consolation. Usually monastics known for their great asceticism and sobriety, including a number of nuns. Sometimes a married priest.
Whom did I have in mind, to be honest having been raised on this it has I had not greatly thought about who 'til you asked. A number of Elders encountered or corresponded with in the course of my journeys and pilgrimages around Europe and its fringes. Plus a number of books and other spiritual writings. These would have included, among others:
Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Elder Hadgi-Georgis the Athonite
Elder Joseph the Hesychast
Archimandrite Justin (Popovich) of Blessed Memory
Starets Paisii (Velichkovshii)
Saint John of Kronstadt
gphadraig wrote:Whom did I have in mind, to be honest having been raised on this it has I had not greatly thought about who 'til you asked. A number of Elders encountered or corresponded with in the course of my journeys and pilgrimages around Europe and its fringes.
Elders.. in the course... around Europe? Who might these be? Am I wrong to assume those you refer to above and the names below do not overlap?
gphadraig wrote:Plus a number of books and other spiritual writings. These would have included, among others:
Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Elder Hadgi-Georgis the Athonite
Elder Joseph the Hesychast
Archimandrite Justin (Popovich) of Blessed Memory
Starets Paisii (Velichkovshii)
Saint John of Kronstadt
I am aware that there are some who refer to an Elder Ephraim now in America (disciple of Elder Joseph). I have even heard of a convert abbot who "claims" eldership (not that I believe it). You don't mention these who would seem to be accessible. What are we missing? Are you in Europe now?
I am not sure what your point is? The message of the three elements together is neither new or novel, that I am aware. Likening them to a stool makes for a digestible 'sound bite', maybe so. Some take an academic style approach to Christianity, with every statement being cross-referenced to Scripture. This was not how I grow up. Anecdotes or parables little different from those in the Gospels played their part. (The latter were effective as learning tools which were held on too and easily recalled; just as later the first aid and emergency drills in my military service were because of the tools used to imprint them on me and my compatriots).
What is more important, the message or the messenger? I live in Europe and despite severe major health needs and mobility problems, together with little money try to access what I may. Much is achieved without going anywhere, thanks be to God. Pious friends too have helped taking me here and there. Plus I tend to stay or live with ordinary folk and not hotels. This has brought me into contact with a living 'tradition', something anyone with good links to any oral tradition may appreciate.
Are you missing something? I cannot answer that? An open heart and a ready smile were something some suggest profit one more than travel. If I manage to acquire either of the former may I'll be able to make a comparison. One old priest said that one did not need to travel at all but rather to follow Him where ever you live. I guess if I were visiting my extensive north American family I would be inclined to visit the Elder Ephraim you refer to.
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George said:
Could you please tell me which Canons you are basing your pontifications regarding your requirements for the Nativity Fast on?
It's based on the general rules of the Orthodox fasts...but, I mis-understood your reference to Dec 13/26. It was late at night when I wrote. I see what you mean. That date is the first date for the restriction of fish, oil and wine. I thought you meant that it was the last day for fish, oil and wine. But, I see that you mean, it is the 12th/25th.
Is there something else I wrote that may be confusing? I may not have written it clearly. You know how it goes when we think one thing but it is written differently and doesn't come out the same way. I don't want to confuse Seeker.
But what they both failed to mention ()is that people new to the faith should receive special guidance from their spiritual father on how to fast.
Yes, that is true OOD. But, is Seeker new to the faith or just curious about the Orthodox tradition? I don't know what his point of view is. So I kept it basic, although I did mention holy confession and Holy Communion.
Geez Tom,
You seem to oppose everything that is based on Orthodox tradition. What does the Protestant point of view offer for spiritual counceling? Fasting is a voluntary act that is an expression of our faith for God. The inner spiritual faith for God becomes expressed in physical acts like fasting, praying, going to church, for starters.
You seem to want to call yourself an Orthodox Christian, but not do anything to express it in action. It's like being a husband, by name, but not having any devotion to your wife. There are circumstances that come with being a husband, right? There are obligations, expressions of love, etc. Same thing goes for worshipping Christ. The standards were set. How much we follow them is our own personal choice, but don't go knocking it down. Can you elaborate on your comment? Since we are talking about fasting...would you share your view on it? Besides your wise-cracks.
gphadraig wrote:I am not sure what your point is? ...Anecdotes or parables little different from those in the Gospels played their part. ...This has brought me into contact with a living 'tradition', something anyone with good links to any oral tradition may appreciate.
You said "Those Elders I have spoken to..."
It's odd to see an appeal to authority without any specific authority mentioned. I thought you had someone in mind. My point was to determine whether you meant that you actually conversed with elders. I think you have answered that now.
gphadraig wrote:What is more important, the message or the messenger?
You're the one who invoked the appeal to the "Elder" messengers. An Orthodox message is as good (better) coming from you, as from an imagined "Elder"