Contra Fr. Seraphim Rose

orthophilly · Post by **orthophilly** » Mon 25 October 2004 5:26 pm

Is there talk that Fr. Seraphim is to be glorified? I had not heard this.

Orthophilly

romiosini · Post by **romiosini** » Mon 25 October 2004 9:40 pm

orthophilly wrote:
Is there talk that Fr. Seraphim is to be glorified? I had not heard this.

Orthophilly

Actually the Synod (ROCOR under omophorion Metropolitan Laurus) hasn't made it subject yet due to the important entering in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. After that, it will occupy itself on the glorification of Saint Philaret of New York officially. (Since Greek Calendarists Synods have and the Russian Autonomous Synod did too). And then once that is done, they will consetrate on the time for Father Seraphim. There are allready accounts of Holliness from intecessions of miracles of these two Fathers. (Master Philaret and Father Seraphim). Hey, hasn't anyone noticed the many books written about and revolving Father Seraphim Rose? Quite obvious, not many fathers who are famous as that don't get glorified. Of course, these accounts are very limited in written books. They are from mouth to mouth until they write in books. Of course, what will scandalize the process to Father Seraphim's glorification will be of his past before he became Orthodox as a homosexual. But there are hundreds of witness accounts of his Great repentace and his entering in the Hesychastic forests of Platina. (Ressembling just like his Patron, Saint Seraphim of Sarov!) Unlike, his friend, Former Fr. Herman, Gleb Podmoshensky, well he has gotten over that stage of his repentance, and as seen, Former Fr. Herman went always for spiritual help to Father Seraphim. Quite obvious, the lives of these two went seperate ways of course. And most obvious, all holy people died early, for example Saint John Maximovitch, Father Seraphim, hey! my patron, look at Saint Basil the Great! 45 years old!
Anyways, it has been made subject, I even asked Bishop Alexander about it, and he told me that it will take some years for any glorifications after the re-union to communion with MP, unless MP decides to do it before ROCOR...

romiosini · Post by **romiosini** » Tue 16 November 2004 6:19 pm

Let me remind all those anti-toll-houses theory believers, that whosoever read the Epistles of Saint Theophan the Recluse of Russia, also defended the Toll-House theory. Now was SAINT Theophan a heretic of some kind or a gnostic? I don't think that any father of our Church who taught or stood against toll house theory would probably would not know 100% of the after death experience. So, what is the deal? Should we put the Sainted Fathers and Mothers of the Church against eachother? Of course not! (Also, remember the Saints were not perfect, they had opinions too, such as Saint Augustine of Hippo in example.) So regarding Father Seraphim Rose and his opposers: Father Seraphim of Thrice-blessed memory has been a true Hesychast and ascetic of our time in America, he has brought many to the True Faith, and his work portray a true sign Tradition. He is NOT the FIRST nor the LAST to write about Toll-Houses, as Joanna said before above, we should leave the dead alone. He doesn't need aknowledgement by certain bishops or priests or laymen, that he lived the Christian living. And hope that we may be able to see him in the future depicted on Icons with his Spiritual Abba Saint John Maximovitch!

paul · Post by **paul** » Wed 17 November 2004 4:19 pm

Greetings
The criticisms here towards Fr. Seraphim are not "bashing" as if we are little children fighting amongst each other over an unimportant matter or if we are arguing over who has the better looking priest vestments, the Greeks or the Russians .
The critisms towards Fr. Seraphim are just. They are not name calling. His beliefs on toll houses is a heresy. And heresy is a matter for the whole church and not just the individual espousing them.
As far as the argument that Saint Theophon the Recluse held the same beliefs, that has been debated and not certain.
If a Bishop were to accept a heresy such as this one it would affect them and that jurisdiction and those in communion with them. To tell someone to leave Fr. Seraphim alone [or rather his teachings on this matter], is to allow this heretical teaching alone and to allow it to spread. To ignore this matter, and to "go about our own lives", as if it does not affect the rest of us, is naive, to say the least.
Suppose the Church had said "Just leave Arius alone; those are his beliefs. It does not affect the rest of us!"

paul

romiosini · Post by **romiosini** » Wed 17 November 2004 4:42 pm

paul wrote:
Greetings
The criticisms here towards Fr. Seraphim are not "bashing" as if we are little children fighting amongst each other over an unimportant matter or if we are arguing over who has the better looking priest vestments, the Greeks or the Russians .
The critisms towards Fr. Seraphim are just. They are not name calling. His beliefs on toll houses is a heresy. And heresy is a matter for the whole church and not just the individual espousing them.
As far as the argument that Saint Theophon the Recluse held the same beliefs, that has been debated and not certain.
If a Bishop were to accept a heresy such as this one it would affect them and that jurisdiction and those in communion with them. To tell someone to leave Fr. Seraphim alone [or rather his teachings on this matter], is to allow this heretical teaching alone and to allow it to spread. To ignore this matter, and to "go about our own lives", as if it does not affect the rest of us, is naive, to say the least.
Suppose the Church had said "Just leave Arius alone; those are his beliefs. It does not affect the rest of us!"

paul

I suggest you read Saint Thephan's Epistles to laymen and monks/nuns. It seems that those who don't read them, believe they are just rumors. And also, along with Saint Theophan comes Saint Ignatius Brianchanninov who also agrees with the Toll House Theory. Which if, someone gave themselves the time to read these epistles, they would realize that it wasn't Fr. Seraphim Rose alone that taught this. So what do we do? We erase Saints Theophan and Ignatius of Russia from the Synaxarion of the Church because they agreed with the Toll House theory? Well? They still aren't the only ones that defending that theory, but also many Saints. Even today, Metropolitan Vitaly defended Fr. Seraphim. Now, which council did it condemn the Toll House theory? I'd like to understand that the 7 Ecumenical Councils condemn nothing such as this. http://www.stmichaelacademy.org/theo/stjd.htm

So who has to be condemned? Saints John the Damascene, John Maximovitch, Ignatius Brianchaninnov, Theophan the Recluse, John of Carpathus, Hesychius, or the Philokalia that speaks of it too. With all due respect to the opposers of the Toll house theory who are wearing the grace of ordination on them (Episcopacy, Presbytery) but this indeed needs more research then Fr. Seraphim's writings.

romiosini · Post by **romiosini** » Wed 17 November 2004 5:09 pm

Orthodox6 wrote:
Some Orthodox (including Orthodox hierarchs) consider this topic to be a heresy; others do not. Some consider it among "theologoumena" (may have misspelled that). The united Church has not issued a final pronouncement.

So if that is Heresy, then those Saints that defended that Theory are heretics! Then Condemnation to them!? (Sure, go erasing Saints of the Synaxarion).

romiosini · Post by **romiosini** » Tue 23 November 2004 3:32 pm

Orthodox6 wrote:
Romiosini,

Please press your "relax" button. I think that one should follow the teachings of one's own bishop(s). As a rule of thumb, that guards one against many temptations. (such as excoriating members of other jurisdictions whose priests and bishops may think and teach differently from yours about this topic.)

In Christ,

Orthodox6

See, the Fathers had different opinions not only of their thoughts for the afterlife. Where would you think they would the idea of Theologoumena from? Obviously the Saints that defended this theory did so. Now this isn't a subject of jurisdiction or bishop or priest. It's a matter of understanding. You cant simply call someone a heretic of a teaching that was in the Church now over 8 centuries. Either all the Fathers along with Father Seraphim Rose, are heretics or they are theologoumena. Along Father Seraphim, is Saint Theodora who also is a witness of Toll Houses. Now there are couple of Fathers who survived the after death experience but have come back. It is a matter of Research. Now Father Seraphim, being a convert, he couldn't possibly let himself use former heretical teachings now would he? Anyways, thanks for you kind advice of relaxing, (I am quite more than relaxed), it was quite thoughtful of you.