End Of Arguement Once And For All !

The resting place of threads that were very valid in 2004, but not so much in 2024. Basically this is a giant historical archive.


fserafim
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Post by fserafim »

Dear Artemon,

May God bless you! I think I understand what you are trying to say. I found the article by Met Ioann totally patristic. He does not advocate hatred of Jews but of Judaism. I would apply the same to my Moslem friends and acquaintances. I don't know any Buddhists - apart from those raised on Dr Spock. I have a copy of Met Ioann's "Russian Symphony" which I need to read again, especially in the light of what you posted. I visited his grave in St Petersburg - 2 yrs ago. One of my Orthodox mentors was Jewish and in our parish we have several Jews - or Hebrews to use the Russian ethnic term. Understanding the difference between Jew (Judaist) and Evrei (ethnic) is very important for in Christ there is neither Greek or Jew or even x (insert nationality)

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

/\RT3|\/|0|\|
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Post by /\RT3|\/|0|\| »

I'm not trying to offend anyone I just wanted to let people see some information, forgive me if I've caused scandle/offence to ANYone on euphrosynoscafe.com :oops:

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

People on euphrosynoscafe.com we're forced to Addmit that the Church Fathers have called the jews "evil" and other things, why? "because they are thats why" people need to start asking the "intelegent" questions like " how come our Church calls the jews these things AND says many other things about them?

:) I attempted an answer to that question on this thread (my post is after the long article posted by Rdr. Jerjis):

http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... c&start=10

Miriam
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Post by Miriam »

ARGUEMENT:

From the point of view of the Orthodox Church it is not correct to speak about the Church on the one hand and Israel on the other. The Christian Church is not a Church of the Gentiles. Here lies the main misunderstanding of the Church on the part of both Judaism and the post-Auschwitz theology. Non-Orthodox Christians can call themselves gentiles if they want, Orthodox Christians will never call themselves gentiles and will never acknowledge this name being called in this way by the Jews. The reason is quite simple; the main point of Christ's mission in this respect was to destroy the wall of separation between Israel and Gentiles. According to Apostle Paul, Christ for us "is our peace who has made us both one and has broken down the dividing wall of enmity"(Eph 2.14). And this wall of separation is really destroyed in the Church, as we believe. Orthodox Christians from any ethnic, cultural or national background become Israel in the Church, that very Israel of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. This feeling of oneness with Israel of patriarchs and prophets is really very deep in Orthodoxy, and there are many feasts celebrated in their memory along with the memory of the Christian saints.

At this point one may immediately ask, how about Jews themselves, does the Orthodox Church say that after the Christ-event those from the Jews, who do not accept him, do not belong to God's beloved Israel any more? I think that the answer to this question on the part of the Church should be the same as to the question about Non-Orthodox Christians. This answer was proposed in the XIX -th century by the great Russian religious thinker Aleksey Khomiakov. He said that the Church /i.e. Orthodox Church/ knows Herself as the Church, in other words as God's Israel. As for all other Christians, and, I would add, non-Christians, or even atheists, we do not judge them. Only God knows whether they belong to his people, his beloved Israel or not. The only thing which we know for certain that there can be only one Israel, one people of God, as there is only one God, and our Church understands Herself as a witness for this oneness.

In other words, we believe that only in Christ, the very opposition of Jewish Israel and non-Jewish Gentiles, which is the main source of enmity between them, is abolished. It is abolished in the New and yet Old Israel of God, which is the Church of both Jews and Non-Jews who believe in Christ.

Instead of "Christendom can gain Salvation only together with Israel" I would say, "Christendom can gain Salvation only being Israel", and I would add: "Jews can gain Salvation only being that same Israel."

There cannot be two Israel’s or Israel and the Church, as the "theology after Auschwitz" try to argue. God demands love from men, not just "togetherness" in the terms of tolerance and indifference, which is often the case with Judaism and Christianity now in the West. I do not mean that anti-Semitism could ever be justified, even if only on the basis of anti-Judaism. Yet anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism are not inseparably connected as theology after Auschwitz and Judaism itself try to argue. One can convict Judaism and be not anti-Semitic. The problem is that some still fail to make the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism. Now, after such historical experience as the pogroms our Church is obliged to express clearly Her teaching, that She does not identify the Jews with Judaism. Our Church has no need to betray Her tradition; She may keep her heritage and reject anti-Semitism.

What it means to keep the heritage of the Fathers in the modern world can be clearly shown by the example of the so called problem of 'the killers of God' . It is well known that since the time of the Nestorian controversy when the notion of the Theotokos was in question and was finally approved by the Church, it became common to call the Jews "the killers of God". Can we after Auschwitz still keep this awful word? The Theology after Auschwitz and Vatican II clearly answer, "no". But that means to reject the authority of the Church Fathers, for whom this term was quite usual. However, there is another solution to this problem, a problem which is really serious, I think, because a lot of Orthodox Christians still believe in Jewish responsibility for the crucifixion of Christ.

But there are two different questions in fact. One is: who killed Christ? The other one: who is guilty? Yes, speaking historically about Jewish guilt and Christian guilt we inevitably come to the fact of Christ's Cross. The fact that Jews killed Christ and failed to believe in Him was the source for Christian hatred towards Judaism. The Theology after Auschwitz often tries to solve this problem on the basis that not Jews but Romans, especially Pontius Pilate, are guilty of killing Christ. This theology does not agree with all those Church Fathers who clearly said that Jews were the killers of God.

Orthodox theology cannot agree in this point with the Theology after Auschwitz. And this is an issue of great importance. If we say that the Romans killed Christ there is still a possibility for someone who attentively reads the Gospels to say that the Jews did it (see for example Acts 2.22,23). So, there is still a possibility for anti-Semitism. The Orthodox position is more profound, I believe. We say that no matter who it was who killed Christ, his guilt has been taken by Christ upon Himself. Being God He (with His Father and the Holy Spirit) is the only true source of the Cross. Thus when we say that Jews (and if you like - Romans) killed Christ we must add that their sin was taken on by Christ. That is why we cannot accuse anybody of His death. If Jews do not acknowledge that their forefathers killed God it is a matter of their freedom, we Christians with our Church Fathers can say both things - that Jews killed God and that their sin is expiated by His blood. So, only we in Christ can say that they are not guilty.

/\RT3|\/|0|\|
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Post by /\RT3|\/|0|\| »

Miriam I see your Satanic tactic hahahahahaha you can't deceive me hahahahaha, NOW I know you like the back of my hand lets get to the chit chase 1. I see you can't answer what I posted about Elder Paissios's statement which supports The Protocalls of Zion=(POZ's) 2. You try and "Imply" the Jews are people of God by makeing sure people listen to one our two wierd supposed theologins and not the Teaching of the Father's of the Church now, you try and attack the Father's by putting this lier on this site you fail to tell any one that preety much ALL the Fathers have said the jews DID!!!!!!!!! crucify Christ which clearly shows this guy here DOESN'T have ANY merit he's wasting his time trying to convice us they didn't, he IS trying to convice us they didn't by using the ol "implying" method, insted of the ol direct "come on out and say it" method, BECAUSE HE KNOWS IF HE DID we would catch on and easly brush him and his comments off and IGNOR them, so know I know why you post a lot of herical ideas, I mean just a few days ago you used the ol " imply" method trying to make us beleive that nonOrthodox can go to heaven too, acording to the Father's and St.Patick of Ierland it's such a MINUTE chance it can be compaired to (1% of 1%) there's NO point in even talking about it.Her's a clue on how to find out when someone or someoneS are trying to teach "HERETICAL" (I have to teach you this scince you don't know what your trying to imply is heretical, or maybe you are a heritic descizing your self as an Orthodox Christian), 1.What they teach is NOT confirme by the majority if not all the Fathers of the Church. They constantly show these theologins with teachings that are teachings not included in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. You need A LOT of studing to do and don't comment on Euphrosynoscafe.com ANY more you've done a enough damage by spreading no Orthodox teachingS. What I say about the jews is 100% correct HOW I say it my be ina mean and strong way that turns people of (and I humbly apologize) to any of you who have been interested in to looking into the posts I was posting but didn't because of my stong wording) but what I say I can back up with "Fathers Of The Church" type of PROOF.

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Natasha
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Post by Natasha »

I have to agree with Schultz now, Artemon you really are sounding like a maniac these days.....

/\RT3|\/|0|\|
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Post by /\RT3|\/|0|\| »

Well I'm sorry to hear that but I'm telling you guys what I'm saying is true, look why don't you guys go to lets say where a Saint is buried and pray to Him/Her and ask them is the antiJew position of the Church correct? they'll show you it's true. Look you don't here the opposition telling you to go to Saints about this or better yet got to a Monastery with a Holy Elder and ask them they'll tell yes, I of all people should KNOW :)

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