It is Time to Know Our History

[paleocon]

jfraese,
You are extremely naive if you believe that the MP's participation in the WCC was solely for the profit of the Communists. The Russian Church benefitted from this association by having contact with other Orthodox, keeping monasteries and churches open, and by acquiring traditional Orthodox books and literature; they would tell the government that they needed these things in order not to appear as ignorant buffoons to the outside world.
Also, do you actually believe that some clergy in the Church Abroad or the Catacomb were not on the Communist/KGB payroll? What better vehicles were there to infilltrate?
So; once an Nazi, always a Nazi, eh? Don't be simple; the Communist party was the only game in town; I guess he should have declared himself an "independent."
It is very easy to tell a quarterback what to do from the comfort of your recliner, is it not?

[Joshua F]

You are extremely naive if you believe that the MP's participation in the WCC was solely for the profit of the Communists. The Russian Church benefitted from this association by having contact with other Orthodox, keeping monasteries and churches open, and by acquiring traditional Orthodox books and literature; they would tell the government that they needed these things in order not to appear as ignorant buffoons to the outside world.

This argument is interesting, and I've certainly heard this before, but for the sake of staying on topic it's probably not worth quibbling about whether the communist government or the MP himself wanted to be in the WCC more, since regardless of the MP's position they certainly wouldn't have participated in the WCC without the implicit support of the Soviet. Either way, the conditions that first inspired MP membership in the WCC, be they the political agenda of the communist government or the constrained circumstances the MP found himself in, no longer exist. The continued participation of the MP in the WCC when it is supposedly free to do as it pleases is what is at stake here, and I have never seen a satisfactory response that doesn't implicitly coincide with ecumenist thinking. The fact of the matter is the MP is in the WCC because they want to be there and believe in the organization.

Also, do you actually believe that some clergy in the Church Abroad or the Catacomb were not on the Communist/KGB payroll? What better vehicles were there to infilltrate?

Well, at least this would explain some of the current vectors in the Church Abroad and Catacomb churches...

I assume you mean to imply that some clergy were on the communist KGB payroll and I think that's been demonstrated by the Mitrokhin archives. However, the Church Abroad never spiritually submitted to an atheist authority. I suspect there were minor MP clergy not on the payroll of the KGB, and major clergy in the ROCA in the payroll of the KGB, and perhaps even in ROCIE now (how would I know for sure?) but the issue is the official position of the church and that's why I'm with ROCIE and not the MP (or ROCA).

So; once an Nazi, always a Nazi, eh? Don't be simple; the Communist party was the only game in town; I guess he should have declared himself an "independent."

Some did and died for this. Those taking that road never made it to the lofty position of MP, that's for sure, so in a way you are pointing to the most sycophantic clergyman the KGB could find and telling me that he did the best he could for the church - I find that a bit difficult to swallow. Look at the procedures and structures that elevated him to his throne, while sending other bishops to Solovki, and you will see the difference between the spirit of the martyrs and the spirit of compromise.

It is very easy to tell a quarterback what to do from the comfort of your recliner, is it not?

As a political scientist, looking at political systems and analyzing power is pretty much my job description. Looking at the MP from a political perspective makes it easier to explain a lot of what the MP does. Nevertheless, I have never told the patriarch what to do. I don't speak Russian, and he has never asked me!