sorry, I hit quote by mistake
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- George Australia
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George Australia wrote:I don't see why this is confusing- it is no different from switching from the Menaion to the Paschalion in the Old Calendar.
It is only confusing to those who try to fit a timeless God into the confines created by Man.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
- joasia
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Romans 14
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks
This quote is out of context concerning my statement. I'm talking about the calendar difference that occurred with Gregory XIII and the Greek Patriarch. But, also, we live 2000 years after the fact, and Seven Ecumenical Councils later. Much has been established by the Holy Fathers and the Holy Spirit since then.
Joanna, the definition of Eternity is that it is beyond time and space- you seem to want to confine Heaven within the physical laws of our four dimensions.
In the same way that God came in the flesh, so He established a Church on earth, for our physical benefit. We worship in spirit but we still struggle with the flesh and we need to conform to the physical establishment that God has developed through the Holy Fathers. Including the Seven Ecumenical Councils. Including the physical tradition of community prayer..going to church. Otherwise, the agruement of praying to God on a personal level, but not needing to go to church, becomes an issue. The physical act of taking Holy Communion is necessary for us also. God in Heaven established these neccessities for us. So I am not limiting Heven to us, God from Heaven, is requiring us to observe these physical laws, but with a spiritual heart. I'm sorry, if I can't express it very well. You seem to be mis-understanding me.
the Gregorian Calendar is not the same as the New Calendar
Exactly, my point.
there is no difference between how the Old and New Calendar operate with reference to the fixed and moveable feasts.
What about after Pentecost? The new calendarists switch back to the new calendar and miss out on 2 weeks. They then, celebrate St. Peter and Paul, at a different time. And when the fast for that may last only 2 weeks, they miss out on the whole fasting period. What about all the names days of those two weeks that are missed out? They also celebrate Christmas by the Gregorian calendar when it is only Dec. 12th on the Julian....St. Spyridon. How about the feast for the Dormition of the Theotokos? What about all the names days during the year? Old and new cannot even wish each other Hpovia Pola.
There is no unison in celebrating the names days.
Doesn't that seem odd to you?
Joanna, you don't seem to realise that whatever calendar is followed, the Canons require that Pascha falls after the Jewish Nomical Pascha. If the date of Pascha were just calculated according to the Vernal Equinox, the Julian Calendar would also have Pascha falling before or on the Jewish Nopmical Pascha.
I understand that. I read about the Paschalion, by James Campbell, but I still don't understand why there has to be a seperation of two weeks concerning the rest of the year. If a saint died on Sept 1st of 800 A.D. or 1800 A.D., it's by the Julian calendar. Now in 2004, there is a two week difference.
I believe in the integrity of the Julian calendar because the Holy Fathers followed it. Today is the name's day of M Andrew Stratelates and others(Julian). But for the Gregorians, it's The New Year and St Symeon Stylites and his mother St Martha(and others).
We are not celebrating together...and that's what disturbs my heart. I want all Orthodox to be in unison, in prayer to God...so that any Orthodox church we walk into, whether Greek, Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian etc, will be commemorating the same saints. Is that too much to hope for?
In Christ,
Joanna
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
- George Australia
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TomS wrote:George Australia wrote:I don't see why this is confusing- it is no different from switching from the Menaion to the Paschalion in the Old Calendar.
It is only confusing to those who try to fit a timeless God into the confines created by Man.
And you know, the irony of all this is the fact that the New Calendarists are using the date which the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Synod used in order to determine the Vernal Equinox (March 21st). We who follow the Old Calendar changed the date of the Vernal Equinox to March 8th. So in a way, we are the 'new calendarists' rather than they.
- George Australia
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Joasia wrote:This quote is out of context concerning my statement. I'm talking about the calendar difference that occurred with Gregory XIII and the Greek Patriarch. But, also, we live 2000 years after the fact, and Seven Ecumenical Councils later. Much has been established by the Holy Fathers and the Holy Spirit since then.
Dear in Christ, Joanna,
Neither the Holy Fathers, nor the Holy Spirit can change what has been revealed to us by the Apostles. "Development of Doctrine" is a Roman Catholic notion which is foreign to Orthodoxy. Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
How is this scripture (Romans 14:4-6) 'out of context'? The New Calendarists are not "esteeming the day" we do- isn't this what the whole argument is about?
Joasia wrote:So I am not limiting Heven to us, God from Heaven, is requiring us to observe these physical laws, but with a spiritual heart. I'm sorry, if I can't express it very well. You seem to be mis-understanding me.
If you say that Heaven can only celebrate certain feasts at certain times, you are trying to squeeze Eternity into our time. There are no days or weeks or years in Heaven. December 25th on Earth is not December 25th in Heaven.
Joasia wrote:the Gregorian Calendar is not the same as the New Calendar
Exactly, my point.
???????Then why do you keep saying that the New Calendarists follow the Gregorian Calendar?
Joasia wrote:there is no difference between how the Old and New Calendar operate with reference to the fixed and moveable feasts.
What about after Pentecost? The new calendarists switch back to the new calendar and miss out on 2 weeks. They then, celebrate St. Peter and Paul, at a different time.
I don't think you understand the difference between the Paschalion and Menaion. Pentecost falls in the Paschalion, the feast of St. Peter and St. Paul falls in the Menaion. The Paschalion is the calendar of moveable feasts in both Old & New Calendars, and the Menaion is the calendar of fixed feasts in both the Old and New Calendars. Both the Old and New calendars switch between their Menaions and Paschalions.
Joasia wrote:We are not celebrating together...and that's what disturbs my heart. I want all Orthodox to be in unison, in prayer to God...so that any Orthodox church we walk into, whether Greek, Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian etc, will be commemorating the same saints. Is that too much to hope for?
But why should the Orthodox Church become a monolithic giant? Why can't we have the diversity which has always existed? Certain Saints are commemorated in certain countries and not others. Why should this change for your benefit?
George
- joasia
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George,
But why should the Orthodox Church become a monolithic giant? Why can't we have the diversity which has always existed? Certain Saints are commemorated in certain countries and not others. Why should this change for your benefit?
I do not understand your approach. Why should the Orthodox become a monolitic giant?? Because unison in the worship of God should be in harmony. The diversity is created by mankind. When July 10th of the Gregorian calendar arrives, the new calendarists will say Hronia Pola to those whose names are commemorated on that day. But, I will not accept that salutation, because it is not that date for me, yet.
Certain saints are commemorated because they are better know to that country. But, it doesn't answer the question, I have put, as to why we can't celebrate the same saints on the same date. The Russians put more emphasis on St. Herman of Alaska for Dec. 25(Dec 12, O.C.), but the Greeks put more emphasis on St. Spyridon(O.S.). But, the new calendarists are already celebrating Christmas. New calendarists are saying Hpistougenna on Dec 25, but the old are still fasting for the Nativity of Christ. That is the DIVERSITY that I am talking about.
By the way, why am I arguing with another so-called old calendarist? Can't you understand what I am saying? I came into Orthodoxy because I believe in the true dogma, but I see so many Greeks confusing the issue...as you are doing. I DON'T agree with it and I NEVER will.
I may not be clear on all the facts I state about dates and names, but I am clear about my faith. You talk too much like an ecumenist...trying to blend everything together. Trying to weave confusion.
But why should the Orthodox Church become a monolithic giant?
Orthodoxy is a monolitic TRUTH. Anyone who tries to teach something else is not Orthodox and not living by the traditions passed down from the Apostles. Am I talking to a protestant or what?
Why do you even question it?
In Christ,
Joanna
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
- George Australia
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Joasia wrote:I DON'T agree with it and I NEVER will.
Fine
Joasia wrote:You talk too much like an ecumenist...
Well so far I've been told I am a communist by another complete stranger, so it doesn't surprise me that a complete stranger should suggest I talk like an ecumenist. I seem to recall another person Who was told that he was casting out demons by the power of beelzebub.
Joasia wrote:Orthodoxy is a monolitic TRUTH. Anyone who tries to teach something else is not Orthodox and not living by the traditions passed down from the Apostles.
Anyone who tries to teach that the calendar is dogma is not living by the traditions passed down from the Apostles.
Joasia wrote:Am I talking to a protestant or what?
communist, ecumenist and protestant...not bad eh?