Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Miriam,

If there is one thing that this thread has taught me it is that it is far easier for us to practice hate, and much harder to practice love. It's also easier to excuse the hate with the writings of old. Yet before the writings of the fathers came into existance there were the words of Christ to adhere to. We seem to go with the later writings and ignore Christ's own words to us. Almost as if they are of lesser importance.

This is not only unfair, but the example you cited is simply invalid.

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (Apocalypse 2:9)

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. (St.Matthew 15:6)

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (St.Matthew 23:35)

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (St.Matthew 27:25)

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. (Acts 3:12-15)

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. (1st Thessalonians 2:15)

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (1st John 2:22-23)

etc. etc.

Though it is unsound for an Orthodox Christian to treat the witness of the Fathers as being something contemptuous, I think it is quite clear that even if we "look before them" at the words of Christ and His Apostles as recorded in Holy Scripture, the same "patristic sentiment" is equally apparent.

All men are born with "strikes against them" so to speak, being "children of wrath" by the generation of Adam (Ephesians 2:3). Flowing from this, they are not simply born mortal, but often born into a societal context which further feeds their mortal degeneracy, glorifying and encouraging the growth of it's bitter fruits. We see this now and in the past. In this sense, while it remains true that no man is punished for the actual sin of his father, he has to live with the consequences of what his father did; and if he should himself grow to assimilate his father's wickedness, then he will be as liable as his ancestors were. This is the "way" of this fallen world, apart from the grace of God.

This is why the Bible can teach us the following...

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin (Deuteronomy 24:16)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

But it also teaches the following...

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. (Deuteronomy 5:9-10)

The point is, that while God will not inflict His punishment for a specific sin upon anyone but the one who commits it, He will give (personally) unmerited favour to those who are children of the righteous (which typically comes in the form of their following after the manner of their good parents), or He will not prevent the children of the wicked from adopting the bad example of their parents.

The Jews, compared to other peoples, were in a unique position - they had a special relationship with God, as a people, on the basis of the righteousness of their father Abraham; a righteous man who believed God. As a consequence, these people received Prophets, revelations, and ultimatly it was from their stock that the Christ emerged - the ultimate fulfillment of God's pledge that He would dwell amongst His people.

Yet, the history of these especially privileged people was, more often than not, one of betrayal and apostacy. The culmination of this (and the most extreme example of which) was the major part of them rejecting Christ, and adhering to a leadership which had conspired to kill their Lord. Of course, not all of Israel followed this path - a remnant stayed faithful, and this constituted the foundation of the Church.

The situation of the Jews is very serious, because theirs is not simply an infidelity like that of the Mohammedans or the pagans, but an apostacy (which involved nothing less than the death of Christ.) The continuation of this apostacy is seen not only in their remaining outside of the true Israel (the Church), but in their unceasingly antagonistic posture toward Christ and the Gospel. As another poster rightly observed, the Jews have always been involved in any attempt to destablize Christian societies and undermine the ability of Christians to live and propagate their faith.

It is generally true, that the greater one's standing, the harder their fall. This was true of lucifer, and it's true of the Jews.

Seraphim

brendan

Post by brendan »

seraphim reeves wrote:

The situation of the Jews is very serious, because theirs is not simply an infidelity like that of the Mohammedans or the pagans, but an apostacy (which involved nothing less than the death of Christ.) The continuation of this apostacy is seen not only in their remaining outside of the true Israel (the Church), but in their unceasingly antagonistic posture toward Christ and the Gospel. As another poster rightly observed, the Jews have always been involved in any attempt to destablize Christian societies and undermine the ability of Christians to live and propagate their faith.

It is generally true, that the greater one's standing, the harder their fall. This was true of lucifer, and it's true of the Jews.

Seraphim

I think you have summed it up very well. Thanks.

Miriam
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Post by Miriam »

Brendan:

Yes, Christ spoke out against the Pharisees. But when you consider the number of times Christ brought this subject up, I would say that rather than just a condemnation, it is also a warning to us, a warning that we have not heeded, since we find ourselves in the same situation as the Pharisees were in at the time of Christ. All the fighting, discord, jurisdiction jumping, heresies, greed, power struggles and condemnations are a reflection of the same disease that destroyed the Jews. Before we look at the log in another’s eye, we really need to get the forest out of ours. Condemn all you want, but until we learn to reflect in ourselves the LOVE of Christ, we have no business being judge and jury to others.

brendan

Post by brendan »

miriam wrote:

Brendan:

Yes, Christ spoke out against the Pharisees. But when you consider the number of times Christ brought this subject up, I would say that rather than just a condemnation, it is also a warning to us, a warning that we have not heeded, since we find ourselves in the same situation as the Pharisees were in at the time of Christ. All the fighting, discord, jurisdiction jumping, heresies, greed, power struggles and condemnations are a reflection of the same disease that destroyed the Jews. Before we look at the log in another’s eye, we really need to get the forest out of ours. Condemn all you want, but until we learn to reflect in ourselves the LOVE of Christ, we have no business being judge and jury to others.

I'm sorry but I have to take a different view. We are all sinners and that will never change, but we can't allow that to prevent us from denouncing evil and opposing anti-Christ forces in this world. Aren't we supposed to be the salt of the earth? The Scriptures warn what will happen if we become bland.

Miriam
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Post by Miriam »

I'm sorry but i'm stuck somewhere between the teachings of

*Love your enemy, forgive your enemy.
*Thou shalt not hate....see above teaching re the 6th commandment.
and Christ's commandment to "love one another as I have loved you."

Everything I am reading does not mesh with the above. I simply can not reconcile them..... Perhaps someday someone will be able to lead me to an understanding but so far it just doesn't.

brendan

Post by brendan »

miriam wrote:

I'm sorry but i'm stuck somewhere between the teachings of

*Love your enemy, forgive your enemy.
*Thou shalt not hate....see above teaching re the 6th commandment.
and Christ's commandment to "love one another as I have loved you."

Everything I am reading does not mesh with the above. I simply can not reconcile them..... Perhaps someday someone will be able to lead me to an understanding but so far it just doesn't.

Did Christ forgive the moneychangers when he took a whip and beat them out of the temple? Doesn't the Church have a few warrior saints? Didn't St. Nicholas punch a heretic?

Forgiving someone doesn't mean you allow them to corrupt other people. Likewise, I can pray for Jews to see the error of their ways while still exposing their actions. Is it hate to warn people of someone who does evil?

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George Australia
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Post by George Australia »

brendan wrote:

Did Christ forgive the moneychangers when he took a whip and beat them out of the temple? Doesn't the Church have a few warrior saints? Didn't St. Nicholas punch a heretic?

Dear in Christ, Brendan,
Yes, Christ forgave the moneychangers; as their Creator and God, He was correcting them.
St. Nicholas struck Arius in the face, not out of passion, but was acting out of Love as attested to by the Most Holy Theotokos Herself.
When I attain the spiritual stature of Christ or St. Nicholas, then perhaps I will act in similar ways to what they did. Apologetics is the realm of theologians, and a theologian in the Orthodox Church is not simply one who has read patristics, but rather, one who sees God, one who prays truly, having attained theosis. Since I am nowhere near there, in the meantime I will try to follow Christ's commandments to me "not to resist an evil person," to "turn the other cheek", to "forgive others that I may be forgiven", to "pass no judgement that I may not be judged".
We should not think for one minute that we can do anything to stop the tide of apostasy- we will have enough trouble not joining it ourselves.
George

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