Anybody? Thoughts?

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Seraphim Reeves
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Anybody? Thoughts?

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Any thoughts on the following?

Accusations/Rebuttals of Archbishop Gregory

I think there is a large part of what he says here which needs an answer. In particular, the "Haiti situation" ought to be addressed, since as far as I can tell he is making a good point here if the facts he has relayed are correct (about Fr.Michael Graves and the manner in which these people were baptized.) Accepting the premise (which many here obviously do - it certainly seems to be the line of every Greek Orthodox Old Calendarist body I've come across) that the only "acceptable" baptism is one done by three immersions, wouldn't the Archbishop be justified here in having a problem with what was done in Haiti?

I'm also curious as to what others would say about Archbishop Gregory excercising his own discretion in the manner of receiving people - I've yet to see a satisfactory reply this, particularly when ROAC itself seems to be saying quite frequently it has not "official" position on this subject. I think Archbishop Gregory's observation that the bar of "true Orthodox Churches" is too vague to be useful, since he is right in saying that many of these groups do not even recognize one another (and have in some cases deposed the clergy of the other group and viewed them as schisms.)

Now before anyone gets all snippy (since that seems to be a problem here lately - sincere questions being met with a "how dare you!" perplexity) I'm only asking these things for the sake of clarity.

Seraphim

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Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

I am prepared to share some of my views with regard to your questions, but before I do this let me say that I believe this whole affair does not seem to be one of a genuine concern for “correctness”.

As the canons say, and as common sense dictates, the credibility of a person offering advice or any other kind of witness should be the first thing that is examined. This is what is done in any court across America, and whether one wants to admit it or not, this is what most people do.

So for me, anything coming from Gregory has to be seen in light of his history. He was very vividly described early in his endeavors by Fr. Panteleimon, who was responding to accusations made even then by Gregory’s few supporters. This testimony of course should naturally be held with equal suspicion until it is either credited or discredited with other facts. It seems to me the information that has since been presented has done nothing other than to lend a great deal of credibility to this letter, which by the way, has never been refuted or addressed in all of the many self-justifications coming from the Skete.

This letter of Fr. Panteleimon describes a reckless self-will, self-justification, and an unhealthy desire for clerical promotion (which has even been admitted by his followers recently), that has formed the basis of and driven Gregory into and out of every synod (or in the case of ROCOR, monastery) he has been in. In fact, I can adequately illustrate that all of the scandals in the Synod of Chrysostomos II and the Lamians centered on promotion to the episcopacy. It seems likely and reasonable then to think that his many recent accusations of the ROAC is sand thrown up in everyones eyes, to hide the real frustration of being restricted to Colorado (an embarrassment to someone who is power hungry) and thwarted in his efforts to have all of America as his territory.

Also lending support to Fr. Panteleimon’s letter, which also describes thievery, is Gregory’s fascination with material possessions. Clearly Gregory is deeply fascinated with the supposed “arrest” of Met. Valentine for “smuggling” money, lawsuits to gain money, and withholding other peoples property.

So before your questions can be answered Seraphim, I believe everyone must inform themselves of the history, most of which has not been covered here, and answer this: is this the work of a righteous man or a deviant personality disorder?

Now, to specifically address your questions.

With regard to Gregory’s discretion on how to receive people from other Old-Calendar groups. This is not a question on if an individual bishop can exercise discretion, it is a question of whether that discretion makes unnecessary, avoidable, and premature declarations on behalf of all the other bishops. Clearly a Mathewite at least has the form of an Orthodox Baptism. So if Gregory wants to believe they have the Baptism or not is perhaps at his discretion, but to re-baptize is to go out of your way to make a declaration. It is very irresponsible and prideful (imho) to think one can independtly make declarations for all your fellow bishops.

Now you might offer some counter-points here, but the bottom line is this: If Gregory’s position on who was “Orthodox” and was not was of such a vital importance to him that he could not exercise economia and insisted on his unilateral declarations, then it is totally inexcusable that he joined their synod in the first place. I might offer a quote from Fr. Panteleimon’s letter: “It is not we who have changed, it is you.”

Regarding the "Haiti situation". I might well agree that Gregory is correct. The Russians have been rather loose in their reception of converts for a few centuries and it was no different with the ROCOR in Gregory’s time. So if I, who am just a layman, know this, then how much more is Gregory responsible for knowing this also? Did the Church in all of these centuries ever consider this errant practice a cause to break communion and make grave declarations?

While Gregory may be right in this case (and I think he is correct), I contend he knew about Russian practice from his own experience in reading and his time in the ROCOR, and is now just using this as a “sand in the eyes” tactic.

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Post by Грешник »

Regarding the "Baptism Controversy" I see many problems with this. The answers not only given several times by members of the ROAC, but also from the words and statements of Archimandrite Michael himself in several posts. I post here some of these points.

From the Dormition Skete Website

1. Illegally receiving 180 Haitian people into the Church without their having ever received even the form holy Baptism, and thus introducing an unacceptable tradition into the Orthodox Church, contrary to the Canons;

From Archimandrite Michael's Own Testimony in This Post

We had no church, but worshipped in an old abandoned hotel which we re-conditioned. We had no pool or large body of water anywhere near us (even though we are on an island), nor did we have the financial means to construct a baptismal pool. Since we were bringing many persons into The Church, and since I never receive converts into The Church except through Baptism, we Baptized persons by having them stand in a large drum while we poured a bucket of water over their heads three times in the name of the Trinity. This was surely acceptable to God...and to all of the jurisidctions of Orthodoxy I know. There were several occassions where we had emergency Baptisms in a hospital or at a death bed, and they were all regularized as soon as possible afterward. (Except for those that had died!) No one has ever been brought to Orthodoxy by me except through Baptism. All of this despite the fact that my former archbishop directed me to receive all converts who had previously been baptized using the proper formula, by Chrismation only.

From the Didache of the Holy Apostles

7:1 Concerning baptism, baptize thus: having first recited all these precepts, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, in running water. 2 But if you have no running water, baptize in other water, and if you cannot baptize in cold water, then warm water; 3 but if you have neither, pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. 4 Before a baptism, let him who baptizes and him who is baptized fast, and any others who may be able to do so. And command him who is baptized to fast one or two days beforehand.

Now it may seem that my proof is inferior in the fact that it is not exactly from the Canons, however, as has been stated in the past as well the Didache of the Holy Apostles is also a valuable and valid source of information in guidance of the Church.

As time provides if more needs be said I will.

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Post by Etienne »

My understanding is - forgive me if I am wrong - that complaints have been laid before an ecclesiastical authority, and that that ecclesiastical authority has not pronounced on the matters set out in the website of one of those parties.

Silence might be the best thing to offer regarding this matter..........

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Post by Грешник »

complaints have been laid before an ecc ... se parties

The interesting thing however, is the fact that a decision has been made and that the court has met and have decided to depose Archbishop Gregory from the Synod. Archbishop Gregory is excommunicated from the Mysteres of the ROAC. here re those, such as Fr. John Claypool who deny this and who say that they "just parted ways", however, I ask him and the Dormition Skete thew following question:

You accused us, those who left the side of Bp. Gregory of not waiting for the Synod. A post on another list went into great detail our personal lives and our "desires" for staying with the Synod. And so I ask, now that the tables are turned it seems that you are now the ones "waiting for the Synod" and yet the reports and slandders do not top coming.

Are you commemorating the First Hierarch of the ROAC within your Liturgies?

Do you stil consider yourselves members of the ROAC?

Do you accept the Deanery that was established by the Metropolitan before leaving the US?

If the truth is that you are waiting for the Synodal decision, then in lieu of that you mst also accept the decisions made by this same Synod during this time.

I do not think that this can be the case however, because even before there was a Synodal meeting there were Ukases and documents tht were printed and sent to you that you just cast asie as illegal and uncannonical. You paid these Ukases no heed and you continued in your present path. So it seems the same path is carried forward now. Nothing has changed in effect you just changed your stance from defensive to ofensive.

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Clarification.

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Juvenaly Martinka wrote:

complaints have been laid before an ecclesiastical authority, and that that ecclesiastical authority has not pronounced on the matters set out in the website of one of those parties

The interesting thing however, is the fact that a decision has been made and that the court has met and have decided to depose Archbishop Gregory from the Synod.

Just to clarify, the synod agreed to his temporary retirement/suspension and then ordered him to the Synod to answer the accusations against him. Since he served, ordained, etc. after being suspended/temporarily retired, according to the cannons he deposed himself willingly. The Synod, after 3 Synod meetings where Bishop Gregory did not appear to answer the multiple accusations against him, excommunicated him from from the Church.

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Post by Austin Doc »

Fr. Nikolai,

You wrote:

Just to clarify, the synod agreed to his temporary retirement/suspension and then ordered him to the Synod to answer the accusations against him. Since he served, ordained, etc. after being suspended/temporarily retired, according to the cannons he deposed himself willingly. The Synod, after 3 Synod meetings where Bishop Gregory did not appear to answer the multiple accusations against him, excommunicated him from from the Church.

I just want to clarify this, did the ROAC synod actually "depose" bp. Gregory, or just sever ties? I am a little confused as to what actually constitues a clergyman being deposed, because the Kiousis synod excommunicated "Fr." Gregory back around 1997(? forgot the date), if I'm correct. The synod announcement did not say specifically they 'defrocked' him. Is being excommunicated, or cut off, the same as defrocked? (I should point out that this occured BEFORE the consecration of Bp. Pavlos of Astoria, the "ecumenist" according to "Bp" Gregory. The Dormition web site used to state that he left the GOC under Abp Chrys. Kiousis because of their consecration of Bp. Paul, which is not true.)

So, if he was truly deposed by the Kiousis synod, then was he really eligible to be consecrated a bishop by ROAC?

In Christ,
Nectarios

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