Met. Valentine should be deposed

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

I was told today that the Lamians have very recently decided to call Gregory to a spiritual court to answer charges.

I am not trying to spread rumors, I am just wondering if there is any more information regarding this?

[Suaidan]

Of course, Nickolai (I speak to you with priestly respect, and I ask your blessings of course) and Reader Jerjis, these are matters of course that shouldn't be of any importance to us. But of course, Father Nicholas recieving the great gift of Ordination, he has made himself part of the problem as being a priest. But from what I (and almost everyone here) read, there is no end to these problems. The best thing to do is to pray for spiritual peace to all those who are afflicted. Even pray for Metropolitan Valentine and Archbishop Gregory. I personally think it was overdone. (Even though, I don't know Masters Valentine and Gregory, I think the problems are very personal). And at these times, the devil makes his "move" to attack us, the faithful (whichever jurisdiction and similar situations. and manipulate our path to salvation. Of course this isn't my business, but as an Orthodox Christian (if you guys aknowledge me as one) it is my responsability to be compassionate to those who are afflicted with these sad problems. I send you all my sad "condolences" (It is as if someone died, because these issues became so severe, there were many prejudgements of others including priests, that it's like suicide of one's soul) for what happened, and I pray and hope for a better path in the Church.

First off, Fr Nikolai is a deacon. Not a priest yet, last I checked.

Secondly, I mean, can I just give everyone a dose of reality here? As someone who has seen more of ROAC's new parishes and representatives in America than anyone else in the country recently, I'd really like to point out, this isn't some massive schism that is occurring.

There are a totally of about 5 people who are "defending" G of C. Three of them are basically unidentified. The other two are clergy of this group. There is no visible membership except for the fact that according to the website of Fr John Claypool, two families stayed with G of C. I am not counting the Bulgarians, who perhaps have not had enough time to know G of C and leave him.

As I said on another list, either one of the Massachusetts parishes is bigger than the entire schism, possibly worldwide-- of G of C. I would wager that our Church in Haiti is at least 5 times bigger than the whole schism. The fact that these people are not posting is because, frankly, many of them aren't on the internet. I know, because I've tried to get some to join lists. There are no Bishops in Russia, there are no parishes in Russia who have come out in support of Gregory of Colorado.

One of the DS 5 posted that we had a paper synod to justify the fact that Metropolitan Valentine did not act alone in getting rid of Gregory of Colorado.

Seriously, with all due respect, I understand people are trying to be nice and thinking that our Church is splitting and we need to pray. It's really not. Our Church, in my opinion, is doing better than ever. And I remember, because I was in it when this nightmare started. Fr Dionysi MacGowan has come out and shown real leadership in a time when the Colorado schism began. Most of the Church in Colorado stuck with him. Outside of Colorado? Well, our Church is something like 5 times bigger than it was when this mess started, so I think we are really doing ok.

http://www.roac.tk

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Might I ask, who is cosmas soloman? Is there such a person anyone knows under the twice deposed (and a near miss) Gregory?

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

I am very much inclined to let this whole Gregory affair die, as Joseph has pointed out, it has gotten much more attention than it deserves.

There are a few points that I would like to make however, since it seems a bit of an injustice to just ignore them.

1) DS has consistently maintained that Met. Valentine has no business administering to the Americas from 10,000 miles away. Of course this along with his attacks on Fr. Vladimir seem to just be the road blocks he met when trying to justify an increase in his own territory. So being the self-willed person as Fr. Panteleimon so vividly described, it is consistent that he should attack what is in his way.

To accentuate this, bishop Tikhon brought up a very good point on the paradosis list. He writes, "Maybe there should be a word like "vagrante?" Today Buena Vista, tomorrow the world! like the part where a fledgling hierarch of some kind not known for fluency in any Slavic tongues returns from visiting Bulgaria and Bulgarian clergy, some ordained by him, and somehow feels that a Russian Metropolitan (the one who consecrated the fledgling) visiting America and American clergy has no business administering them."

So if the Met. Valentine cannot administer to the Americas, how is it possible that Gregory can administer to Bulgaria?

2) Exactly why is DS so interested in proving to the world that Met. Valentine was arrested for "smuggling" money (which I don't believe he was)? An arrest proves nothing, except the Met. was not aware of secular law, did not trust the Russian government on the other end, or a whole host of other reasons. For me, this fanatical interest on the part of Gregory, and his threats of lawsuits and the many other property disputes he has instigated, only shows there is some pathological love for money and/or revenge. Why else would an "Orthodox Christian" do these things? In addition, this tireless interest in what happened at the airport seems to support their own assertion that they gave the Metropolitan money, and that they just could not bear the thought he still had it and was about to leave the country.

But whatever the case, who cares?

3) DS has been very consistent to say the HOCNA are schismatics, and the only other true confessing Orthodox are the Lamian schismatics now under "archbishop" Makarios. What they are hiding (and I say "hiding" because I know Fr. George and Gregory know this) is the fact that Makarios late last year expressed the confession of all his fellow clergy in a speech, repenting of the deposition of Bp. Auxentios and said they were all wrong to do this (somehow thinking they are the continuation of the GOC). Before this, and since, the Lamians have been striving for unity with HOCNA. Is this anything else except a confession that they themselves are schismatic from the HOCNA? How does Gregory, who is so strict not to recognize the HOCNA, justify that by his communion and confession of and with the Lamians does anything else but constitute that he himself accepts the baptisms and Mysteries of the HOCNA? He informs poor Olga Mitrenina that she is uninformed about what is happening here, while he is fully aware and perfectly at ease in concealing what is happening in Greece?

And how can he condemn the AROC for being agnostic in attitude, when by his own communion he has gone much further than the AROC in recognizing the HOCNA?

Just some thoughts.