"old calendarism", "same mentality", and

[John Haluska]

Nectarios:

The following is your post to Joasia:

Joasia,

I agree with you...there is, or are, spiritual diseases: "old calendarism" and ecumenism.

Nectarios

You said: And I'm not picking on any specific Synod. In my eyes, they all have the same mentality. It's a spiritual disease that is spreading like wild fire and satan is roasting his marshmellows on it and having a big laugh.

---

Nectarios:

(1) Please be so kind as to enlighten us with your definition of the term

"old calendarism".

(2) Also, please be so kind as to enlighten us Orthodox Christians as to where following the Orthodox Church's Calendar places us in what you term

"same mentality".

and

(3) Please be so kind as to enlighten us Orthodox Christians as to how we are

"spiritually diseased"

when we follow what the Orthodox Church has given us to use and follow.

Thank you, in advance, for you reply.

John

[Etienne]

During my extensive travells in Greece I never spoke of the Old Calendar, but the Church Calendar. There is no old calendar, indeed the largest Orthodox population in the world, Russia, adhere to this a calendar which evolved painfully over centuries with many synods, including here in the 'British isles'. Regardless of where I went and who I met my adherence to this the Church calendar was openly declared. Not once did I suffer any rejection or get any 'lecture' on the subject. Rather the contrary.

A revised version of this was 'uncanonically' introduced, and with a complete lack of regard for the norm of a conciliar approach essential to relationships within the Church. There are many diseases abroad today, but a loose use of language coupled with a sweeping and damning assertion is in itself a sympton of the lack of the expression of love within and between local churches today.

The astronomical accuracy of both the Julian and Gregorian calendars is less than 100%. The introduction of the Revised Julian Calendar was for all the wrong reasons, to suit commerce and business and to reduce barriers between the Orthodox and the heterodox. That it was done and the damage and tearing of unity between the local churches and the Church triumphant is something that might more properly and more accurately be described as a 'disease', although this term is best used in its proper place - medicine.

Ecumenism and a worldly approach were the parents of this tear in the unity of Orthodoxy. At worst the so-called Old Calendar phenomena is a sympton of a reaction to this 'infection'. And like all anti-body reactions it can be 'ineffective, effective or a problematic over-reaction.

Please remember which came first, and those that brought this about and those that follow this are remarkable in that they largely take absolutely no responsibility for all that followed!

[Austin Doc]

Dear John,

I'll try my best to answer your questions. (Please keep in mind that I don't know how everyone is copying other people's statements so that it comes out highlighted.) so, in response to y our question #2 about the "same mentality", this was not from me, but a statement from Joasia that I had copied.

I was simply repling that there are spiritual diseases, one being 'ecumenism, and another that I call ' old calendarism". This later one I'll try to define. It is the reactionary extreme mentality that is part of the current problem with the Traditionalist OC jurisdictions. without getting into specifics, it is when one bishop or group of Orthodox don't feel another group is following the canons strictly enough...and then cause a schism. Or when, a bishop may use economia, and another faction wants to apply a strict interpetation of a canon to the same situation and then use that as a reason to break away. Or maybe a schism is caused because of personality conflicts.

In essence, I'm talking about the mind-set of pride and finding error in others, when maybe charity could have been used. I'm not saying following the canons as best as one can is the problem. Its the 'you're not Orthodox enough" strictness that foments divisions that I'm talking about. I hope this is clear. I don't want to point to the multiple facets of each jurisdiction in the Traditional "camp"...as that will just make others want to go into a defensive mode.

anyway, I hope this is clear. Someone once told me -- and this was a person of Greek descent -- "if you have 5 Greeks together somewhere, you'll have 5 schisms". Catch my drift? This doesn't apply to Greeks alone.

Nectarios

[John Haluska]

Nectarios,

Thank you for replying.

I concede the first paragraph of your initial reply.

I have read and re-read your reply many times, and I have written and re-written many responses; none of which do justice to your reply, as a proper reply would be inordinately long and detailed.

Your reply is composed of many “terms” as well as many topics…all of which bear further discussion.

To wit, I propose the following…

Allow us, and anyone else who wishes of course, to discuss one topic, or term individually. This should create less confusion (on my part anyway), and, more importantly, resolve issues set before us.

There is one topic/term, which is actually a union of sorts.

I propose the following topic/term to be discussed:

“Spiritual disease”; with respect to “old calendarism”

1.Please supply a preliminary definition as to your term “spiritual disease”.
2.Please supply a preliminary definition as to the term “old calendarism”.
3.Do you concede that the “old calendar” is part of the term “old calendarism”? If you do, the please supply your definition of the term “old calendar”.

I thank you, in advance, for the acceptance of these requests so that we may further discuss these, and other, topics.

I await your reply.

John

[Austin Doc]

Dear John,

You wrote:I propose the following topic/term to be discussed:

“Spiritual disease”; with respect to “old calendarism”

1.Please supply a preliminary definition as to your term “spiritual disease”.
2.Please supply a preliminary definition as to the term “old calendarism”.
3.Do you concede that the “old calendar” is part of the term “old calendarism”? If you do, the please supply your definition of the term “old calendar”.

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   John I don't find it really worthy enough to create a separate thread on this term, "old calendarism".  It is just my own made up phrase to denote a certain behavior I've seen in the Traditionalist Orthodox that want to use a strict interpetation of canons without wisdom or charity, to cause discord and schism.   I think it could be better defined by giving examples, but I'm unwilling to stir things up with that approach -- too much discord already on this web site.

  Regarding "spiritual disease"....that is like saying physical disease.  there are many modes of this.  The Ladder describes them.   I think the greatest element I find present in "old calendarism" is pride, and lack of true Love.   I really don't know what to say beyond this.

 Regarding the term, "old calendar"...I do not believe this should be part of the discussion of 'old calendarism".   I do not even like the term "old calendar"...as if the Orthodox Calendar is old and worn out, and not as good as the "new".    To me, there is no 'old calendar".   there is only the Orthodox calendar.   In my opinion,  the "new Calendar" is an innovation; however, I believe this particular topic has been discussed elsewhere, no?

  anyway, I don't know where else you would want to take the discussion.  Perhaps others would chime in?

yours in Christ,
Nectarios

[Justin Kissel]

All I can do is say what I thought of when I saw the term "old calendarism". I thought of certain people who were ready (and did) divide over things like whether a cross in the floor should be taken out, or disputes over details about icons (I'm not even talking about a dispute like whether God the Father can appear in an icon). I do not mean to judge those men who divided over these issues... I do not mean to, but... how can I not be sad over dividing over such small things, when the faith is in peril? Some of those who remained faithful to the Church Calendar seemed so defensive and cautious that any small lapse seemed unacceptable to them. Very well, some Saints were just as... strict (I won't say stubborn!)

Those who are of the true faith will eventually be united again. But until that time, division reigns, and what do those in the OCA, and MP, and EP, and so forth, see when they look at us? Do they see love, and hope, and faith? or division and "canon police" and "kooks"? I am not, of course, saying that we have not love, hope, and faith... but should we not take steps to make sure that those who observe us do not stumble because of us (even if it is because they misunderstand us)? To me--if I were using the term old-calendarism--there is a tendency to be so strict, out of fear of falling away from the faith, that you end up doing nothing less than paralyzing the body of Christ.

When we fall under such a tendency, we are perhaps more impervious to error, but I think we are also more impervious to God's love, and are less able to show love our brother. I don't say we love our brother less, mind you: only that we are less able to show it. We've been stung, and now we are overly cautious, lest we get stung again. But this must stop eventually, and we must be willing to risk everything--even our own salvation--for the Church. That's what Paul was talking about, I think, in that astounding verse where he said he would gladly be accursed if only the Jews would be saved. Love (not a false love, of course) conquers all.

[Austin Doc]

Justin,

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You kind of summed up what I've been trying to say when I used that phrase, "old calendarism".  

Nectarios