Authority

[joasia]

Mor ephrem,

How do you know? Prove it.

You want me to prove the traditions that the Orthodox church has followed for the passed 2000 years??

Was I making comments that were from outerspace?? Or is Orthodoxy not based on these solid traditions??

Please explain why I should prove something that has been a living tradition for the passed 2000 years of Christian faith and preserved in the Seven Ecumenical Councils and defended by the most honorable saints.

By asking to prove it, does that mean you don't agree with it? Or do you want me to give you quotes? I should think that the Seven Ecumenical Councils would be a solid basis for anyone with an Orthodox faith.

So, forgive me, if I don't understand where you're coming from.

The final point is this...being Orthodox means having faith and trust in the establishment of the Church of Christ and the preservation that was upheld by those saints. This is how our faith has been preserved and seperated from heresy.

Lucian's question, if I'm understanding it properly, is not with regard to Orthodoxy per se, but to how we know. Is there an objective way of knowing that X is false and Y is true? That question is not so easily answered just by saying "Our religion, Orthodoxy, is correct, and all others are incorrect, because that is what our religion/the Holy Fathers/the Councils/whatever teach(es)".

The holy fathers have lived and died for that truth. Their teachings are the Y that proves the truth. It comes down to trusting them as the servants of God.

Says you. But how do you know? Prove it.

It's NOT my opinion. If the Orthodox bishops of the past thought this way, we'd all be with the pope of Rome today. In the same sad spiritual state.

Just to be clear, I am responding this way because you asked me to "prove it". If you need proof then there's a problem with your faith.

But, if you had asked...how can someone prove it? Then I would agree that this is a good issue. It's important to know how to respond to others.

So are you and Lucian asking for proof because you don't trust the holy fathers or are you asking in a way, so that we can better understand how to explain the Orthodox faith?

Yes, I too would like to know the best way to explain to other Christian denominations and non-Christian about the truth.

Afterall, I'm not a theologian and there is always so much more to learn.

Perhaps you can admit that you have alot more to learn too.

[Mor Ephrem]

The final point is this...being Orthodox means having faith and trust in the establishment of the Church of Christ and the preservation that was upheld by those saints. This is how our faith has been preserved and seperated from heresy.

The holy fathers have lived and died for that truth. Their teachings are the Y that proves the truth. It comes down to trusting them as the servants of God.

Right. But this is a very subjective argument. Don't the Latins have their own "holy fathers", their own miraculous phenomena, their own "tradition", etc.? They could make the very same argument in favour of their religion that you are making for Orthodoxy, and again, it would come down to nothing other than the individual making a judgement on who makes the best case.

Just to be clear, I am responding this way because you asked me to "prove it". If you need proof then there's a problem with your faith.

It's not so much a question of proof, but a question of figuring out what certainty one can have in determining these things. All of us have the certainty of faith, but that is subjective. Others of other faiths have their own "certainty of faith", after all. But is there an objective?

But, if you had asked...how can someone prove it? Then I would agree that this is a good issue. It's important to know how to respond to others.

I think this is more what I'm getting at. If "someone can prove it", then there is an objective way of establishing what the truth is.

Afterall, I'm not a theologian and there is always so much more to learn.

Perhaps you can admit that you have alot more to learn too.

I don't think I've ever denied this, have I?

[Savva24]

Dear Mor,

While I understand you asking Josia to offer some back up for some of her statements and also feel that she is missing the essential question being asked, there are some things that she should'nt have to explain on an Orthodox board. It should be common knowledge for us Orthodox Christians that the Holy Fathers are in Heaven with God or that the Dali Lama is wrong. For her to try and dig up evidence for these kinds of statements would be a big waste of her and everyone's time. Don't you think?

Nicholas (savva)

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

I would agree with Mor that whenever circumstances permit it is very beneficial to cite the fathers in context as much as possible.

Right. But this is a very subjective argument. Don't the Latins have their own "holy fathers", their own miraculous phenomena, their own "tradition", etc.? They could make the very same argument in favour of their religion that you are making for Orthodoxy, and again, it would come down to nothing other than the individual making a judgement on who makes the best case.

At a superficial level this is true, which is Mor's point I believe. But as soon as one really roles up his sleaves it is easy enough to show the Latins have been rebelling against the Holy Fathers in almost every single way.

I think this is more what I'm getting at. If "someone can prove it", then there is an objective way of establishing what the truth is.

One cannot prove Holy Tradition any more than one can prove Jesus is the Christ. Faith and piety are transmitted - from teacher to disciple, from parent to child, from elder to disciple, from Christian to Christian. Someone who knows Holy Tradition is one who experiences divine things, not one who learns about them, having faith as a guide and not knowledge. "He walks by faith and not by sight", as the Apostle Paul says.

[Mor Ephrem]

Dear Nicholas,

Please do not misunderstand. It isn't my intention to get her to prove to me that the Holy Fathers are who we believe them to be and that the Dalai Lama is wrong.

OOD wrote:

At a superficial level this is true, which is Mor's point I believe. But as soon as one really roles up his sleaves it is easy enough to show the Latins have been rebelling against the Holy Fathers in almost every single way.

And I agree with him. It was precisely my comparisons of Latin teaching with the history of the Church and the writings of the Fathers which showed me that the Latins are wrong on all the points in which they differ from the Orthodox.

But we come into this discussion with assumptions on what is and what is not true. Our assumptions prevent us, for example, from taking the claims of Muslims seriously. My question is not about how to tell truth from falsehood within a "set of Christian assumptions". If you accept that some form of Christianity is the "true faith", then I think it is pretty simple, relatively speaking, to show how Orthodoxy is in every way the perfect expression of the Christian Faith as it was passed on from the time of the Apostles until the present day. RC's, of course, often refer to the same Fathers and Councils we do to support their claims, but when someone "really rolls up his sleeves", as OOD wrote, even this can be overcome, because we recognise many of the same authorities.

OOD wrote:

One cannot prove Holy Tradition any more than one can prove Jesus is the Christ. Faith and piety are transmitted - from teacher to disciple, from parent to child, from elder to disciple, from Christian to Christian. Someone who knows Holy Tradition is one who experiences divine things, not one who learns about them, having faith as a guide and not knowledge. "He walks by faith and not by sight", as the Apostle Paul says.

And I guess this is what I wanted to try and get at in a roundabout way. There is a tension between the fact that we can't even prove that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ in such a way that no one would be able to reject Him and the fact that God's gift of Faith gives us assurance that the Orthodox Faith we profess is the Faith of the Apostles, Martyrs, and Fathers. We are certain and uncertain at the same time (in different ways, of course).

The only way out of this is the cultivation of the humble heart through humility (duh), communion with God through prayer, repentence, etc. This humility will make us receptive to the transmission of Faith, which is ultimately from God to man, and then also "from parent to child, from elder to disciple, from Christian to Christian". The more we are in communion with God, the more we will see.

I don't think this is anything new--I think OOD and others have said similar things earlier in this thread. Personally, I am increasingly coming to this realisation: we can read and study and discuss all we want, and that is good and necessary to an extent, but ultimately the only thing that matters is our cooperation with God in our sanctification. If we do this, everything else will fall into place.

[joasia]

From everything that has been said after my last post...there is one point that clearly stands out....

A person will BELIEVE only if he has FAITH. And that faith is only in God's hand.

There is no amount of debate, even amongst Christians (never mind outside, like Muslims) that can convince an individual. Only God can do that.

I know. I am a living example. As a former, RC, I don't know, for the life of me, why I saw the true faith in the Orthodox teachings. Mind you, the Orthodox teachings, not necessarily, the Orthodox people.

But, I believe in it and I live it. So now I try to make sense to others, who ask questions. But, I realize that it's not all my words that will make the difference. It's God.

Forgive me for forgetting that one Truth.

In Christ, Joanna

[Lucian]

Lucian: The Bible, the Fathers, the Councils, the Liturgy, etc., are not authorities. They are documentary sources to which different persons assign different weights of importance.

Joasia: They ARE the complete authority of the Church that Christ established through the Apostles. These are not men who sat around a table, scratching their heads, saying: Soooo, what should we tell the people?

Again, you missed the point, Joasia, as Mor Ephrem pointed out.

The items I listed above are documents. They must be read, understood, and interpreted.

They are sources of authority, works we use to tell us what Christianity is or ought to be.

I agree that they are authoritative and to varying extents inspired by the Holy Spirit (e.g., not everything the Fathers wrote was inspired).

But it is up to individual human beings to read or hear them, to understand and interpret them, and then to accept or reject them.

Joasia: They were guided by the Holy Spirit. They are holy men. I say ARE, because they ARE, right now, sitting at the right hand of the Father.

I believe the same thing, Joasia.

The point is, I believe it because I, personally, am convinced that's true.

I don't believe it because someone ordered me to believe it.

Joasia: To trust their teachings is to say to oneself: God has guided them to show us what God wants us to know about Himself and how He wants us to worship Him and believe in Him.

Okay.

"Say to oneself" - sounds like personal responsibility: individual accountability to God to know what the faith is and to accept it.

Joasia: Bishops of today can say all kinds of things, but to have knowledge of what the holy fathers taught about the True worship of God. helps us to recognize when bishops fall away from God's teachings.

Right.

I agree, but you are missing the point.

I know what the Fathers wrote (at least some of it) and what the faith is. I don't accept what bishops say merely because they are bishops.

What the bishops say must not contradict the Christian faith as I have learned it, or I will reject what they say.

However you slice it, that makes me the responsible party - the final authority, if you will - for me.

Of course, I am ultimately accountable to God.

Lucian: Ultimately, the individual human being must decide for him/herself what he/she believes to be true.

Joasia: This is a purely protestant comment and that's why I say that you sound confused even if you proclaim to be Orthodox.

No, it is NOT!

It was simply the TRUTH.

I don't think you would recognize Protestantism if it bit you am Arsch.

Who decided that you would become Orthodox, Joasia?

Someone down at the U.N. ?

Didn't you decide to become Orthodox?

Joasia: There are people out there that believe that the Dali Lama is true. But, are they right? No, they are absolutely wrong. So, are you going to tell these people, well... whatever they believe, is true?? Because they decided that it's true in their lives?

Read what I wrote.

I did not say that whatever someone decides is automatically true.

I said that each of us is responsible for what we decide.

We are the authorities, the free agents, the decision makers.

God will judge each case individually, based upon our own circumstances (how much we knew, etc.).

Some people choose to believe in the wrong things. They make mistakes.

They are responsible.

Lucian: A person could, for example, decide for Roman Catholicism and theoretically from that moment on surrender his decision-making to a supposedly infallible magisterium.

But suppose that magisterium decides one day that women and gays can be priests, or that it is not necessary to believe in the Trinity.

Does one say to himself, "Gee, I know the magisterium cannot make a mistake, so I'll go along with this"?

Suppose, on the other hand, that the vast majority of Orthodox bishops attend a supposed ecumenical council somewhere and decide that women should be priests, that the Fathers misunderstood the Monophysites, or that gays should be allowed to marry other gays of the same gender.

The bishops have spoken, right? Nope. Wrong.

Joasia: So with these examples, you show that the decisions cannot be based on what a person decides, even if he's a bishop, because it sounds wrong to our faith of Orthodoxy...But, tell me Lucian...how do you know this sounds wrong....

Maybe because of the Church dogma that was established by, I don't know, hmmm....THE HOLY FATHERS.

Because the holy fathers made it clear, what was right and wrong in the Church of Christ, which we know as Orthodoxy today and so anything that is taught outside of that is HERESY.

You make my point, Joasia.

I know because I believe the Holy Fathers.

I didn't have to believe the Holy Fathers, but I do.

I decided to believe in them. I responded to the gentle prompting of God's Holy Spirit.

I didn't have to. He didn't force me.

The point is, the Fathers did not become authorities for me - in the personal, subjective sense - until I accepted their authority.

Lucian: Each of us is responsible to know the faith and decide for him/herself....Each of us is responsible to know the faith and decide for him/herself.

Joasia: Decide? A person can read about Orthodoxy and decide that it is pure bunk.

That is correct, and many do decide that way.

God gave them free will.

They are free to decide how they will respond to the Gospel.

God will also hold them responsible for that choice.

Joasia: Is it bunk, if there are people out there who DECIDE it? There are people who are atheists or satanic worshippers. Are you going to tell them that whatever they feel is true is fine? These people actually BELIEVE that what they believe is true!

You are confused.

You have mistaken what I have written for relativism.

I never said the truth is relative or that we decide what truth is in the objective sense.

No, the truth remains what it is regardless of how right or wrong we are about it.

But each of us does decide what he or she thinks the truth is.

That makes us ultimately responsible to God.

That is a dreadful responsibility and one we cannot abdicate.

It requires that each of us be brutally honest with him/herself.

Joasia: I, personally, would say...each of us has the opportunity to hear about Orthodoxy and if they choose to refuse, then God have mercy on their souls.

Once again you make my point.

You have individuals making choices.

They, and not some external authority, are responsible to God for their souls.

Lucian: We cannot surrender this responsibility to a bishop.

Joasia: The holy fathers were priceless jewels to our faith.

I agree.

But why do I think that way?

Not merely because someone told me to, I assure you.

Joasia: These present-day bishops are questionable.

Everyone is "questionable" until he's run his race and finished the course.

Were the Fathers regarded as Fathers in their own day?

Some were, perhaps, but many more were outcasts and martyrs.

Bishops have always been "questionable."

Again that makes my point.

Joasia: Of course, we have to keep our eyes open with today's hierarchy.

Again you grant individual Christians the authority to decide for themselves whether or not the bishops are upholding the Apostolic Faith.

You don't obey a bishop merely because he is a bishop.

Joasia: But, that brings me back to a thought...who can we trust in to guide us to the Truth?

With whom are you arguing?

I cannot see that you are responding to anything I wrote.

Joasia: The Apostles who established the church on Pentecost, their predessesors and those guided by the Holy Spirit to compile, not only the Seven Ecumenical Councils, but THE BIBLE, during the First Ecumenical Council. ALL theological dogma is BASED on these men and councils. And EVERY Orthodox saint who taught dogma were educated with the teachings OF the councils, depending on how many councils existed at the time of that saint. And the present-day hierarchy have to follow their teachings. They know that. Because if any of them start preaching something else, anybody can hold up a Council canon to put them back in their place. The same canons that were compiled by the holy fathers who were inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT.

You are arguing with someone else, a relativist or liberal you have dreamed up.

I never questioned the truth of the Orthodox faith, the Bible, the Councils, the Fathers, etc.

What I asked about was authority.

If I believe all of those things you mentioned say one thing, and a huge gathering of Orthodox bishops claims it says another, must I yield to them because of their authority?

Lucian: The question was this: who is the authority for the Christian faith?

Joasia: If you can't figure that out by now, then you are more lost than I thought.

Sigh . . .