We should become peasants.

[尼古拉前执事]

Logos, what if you were married?

While thinking it over, I think finding a priest willing to be a part of such a community would be extremely difficult, a mission might be how to start initially. That way a priest could come out at least once a month. Otherwise I guess it would be reader services.

Housing wise, with the above comments I think the idea of a community library and cafeteria would be a good way to go as well. As for the phone, maybe a payphone a half mile down the nearest road? On a car why not horse and buggy it?

Also there is a romantic notion to it, but the bathing in a family shared tub, outhouses, cloth diapers, no fridge or a/c would make it very tough. I wonder how many of the people for such an idea could truly handle it, being raised with all the modern conveniences.

Again, I am just throwing ideas out here. I would see such a community as a positive thing. It would be easier if it was already established for the reasons Justin mentioned. Cutting logs for wood and all could be done for maintainance and building new houses, but to start you need houses in place and clothes made. One would almost have to become an Amish intern to learn the tricks of the trade first.

Could I realisticly do such a thing? I do not know. I would liek to think that if God called me to do such a thing I could, but many of these inconveniences could make me fall short.

[Mary Kissel]

Nicholas in regards to your question about why not using a horse and buggy.... that would be nice to use..but what if it were an extreme emergency and someone needed to get to the hospital quicker than a horse could take them? What would happen then? Also, in regards to the phone being half a mile down the road...why not just have it in the Library so it would be quicker to get to for an emergency if needed.

I agree that this would be hard to live this way, but I am willing to do it, especially if my husband is behind me on it, I wouldn't want to do it without him.

MaryCecilia

[Justin Kissel]

logos

A community like this will tend to be full of people who are married and have families. In other words there would be nothing there for the single folk.

Hmm, I think you are right in saying that it would probably be mostly families. I think the second largest group in a place like this would be people who already knew that they were going to be celibate all their lives, but who didn't think they were suppose to be in a monastery. Finding one's spouse--at least among the first generation of the community--would probably be best done elsewhere. (Though, once you did get married... lol)

Nicholas

While thinking it over, I think finding a priest willing to be a part of such a community would be extremely difficult, a mission might be how to start initially. That way a priest could come out at least once a month. Otherwise I guess it would be reader services.

This is true. Perhaps a few people should have more formal training before the mission would be started, though. At least someone with choir experience, and also a reader (or possibly Deacon). It's also notable that Priests can be "elevated" from within if the bishop decides that it's good to do. Fr. Seraphim and Fr. Herman were both layman when they first went into the wilderness, and became Priests mostly at the insistence of the bishops (so that they could better serve the people who they were ministering to).

As for the phone, maybe a payphone a half mile down the nearest road? On a car why not horse and buggy it?

If the Lord so wills I can think of no immediate problems with these options.

Also there is a romantic notion to it, but the bathing in a family shared tub, outhouses, cloth diapers, no fridge or a/c would make it very tough. I wonder how many of the people for such an idea could truly handle it, being raised with all the modern conveniences.

I don't know. What would you think about "easing" some of this (e.g., have indoor plumbing/running water/toilets/shower) if only a few were willing to come with a total lack of modern conveniences, and there were not enough to get this up and running? Or possibly a compromise, such as a shower/toilet hut for every three or four familes, or something like that?

Cutting logs for wood and all could be done for maintainance and building new houses, but to start you need houses in place and clothes made. One would almost have to become an Amish intern to learn the tricks of the trade first.

Do the Amish allow people to live in their community for only a short time? Would they look on we Orthodox with a wary eye (with all our icons and veneration of saints and all)? Also, I still think more money is going to be needed. A foundation for a building, even if done by us, and even if only a slab of concrete (as is common in the south) is going to cost money. Also, there's nails and perhaps other such things, which can get expensive when talking about building an entire building. Perhaps one option is to have an iconographer, candle maker, clothing maker, etc. in the community. Any excess money can then go to the poor. Regarding new houses, maybe a pre-base group can "camp out" and do some early construction for a while, and then afterwards the rest of the base group can join them?

MaryCecilia K

Nicholas in regards to your question about why not using a horse and buggy.... that would be nice to use..but what if it were an extreme emergency and someone needed to get to the hospital quicker than a horse could take them? What would happen then? Also, in regards to the phone being half a mile down the road...why not just have it in the Library so it would be quicker to get to for an emergency if needed.

I would say that, in that case, if necessary, someone could run to the payphone and call for an ambulance. If the phone was only a half mile away, it wouldn't take more than 3-5 minutes to get there. On the other hand, I do personally like the idea of having at least one phone and one vehicle, but then that will present other problems. We shall see.

I agree that this would be hard to live this way, but I am willing to do it, especially if my husband is behind me on it, I wouldn't want to do it without him.

He will wait to see what God says

Justin

[Justin Kissel]

Perhaps a good way to do a test would be to take an extended camping trip. This need not be a vacation from work, but perhaps one can commute to work from the area in which they are camping. This obviously wouldn't be exactly the same as what is being discussed in this thread, but it'd perhaps be a good test or experience.

Edit: Thinking over things, it appears that I'm having perhaps a slightly different "vision" for this than some others. I seem to have a slightly less reclusive idea about such a community that others. So, for example, I wouldn't mind selling things to make money (in fact, I would prefer doing that more and being less agriculturally based, though of course farming/animals would still be important).

I think we also need to be realistic here. Perhaps some things we could see about eliminating after a time, or perhaps we could have it set up where some families could have certain things (e.g., running water), while other families wouldn't, depending on the needs of each family. After all, it'd be a pity for a family not to participate just because of some small not-a-necessity ascetic practice that they can't/won't do. After all, this is suppose to be a community (where there will be some degree of diversity), not a monastic community (where a rigid monastic rule could be followed by all), right?

Thinking out loud here.

Justin

[Liudmilla]

I've been reading some of the posts here and I see the enthusiasm that this idea is generating. I never said that this was not possible. I said that it was not truly achievable. And for a number of reasons: First, human nature -- we are not all alike, not everyone can do and give all to what you are proposing. Who's going to keep track? Second, you would need quite an investment of capital to make this work. How many of us really have this kind of capital at hand? Third, I would not be willing to place all my faith in the ability of a priest to guide such a community. I have my reasons....gained over a lifetime....mostly, they are men just like the rest of us, with the same doubts, fears, tempations and ability to error. A position such as you propose is as equally dangerous to him as it is to us. Consider history and men of the cloth in positions of power...... I'm not saying that it would happen, I just feel that it's not advisable. If you meant as an advisor on a board, I think I might be agreeable. Fourth, there are also Amish communities that allow use of some "Comforts" (such as electricity, refrigerators and such )...they don't seem to have a problem with them and even do well. They don't seem to have lost out in holding onto the simple life.

You have limited yourselves to just the Amish as a guide to setting up an Orthodox community, however alot of what you propose has been used in setting up the (forgive me for even suggesting it) jewish kibutzes. Your answers to the communality of things could be found there. Or even (although I'm not certain) the kolhoz of Russia -- perhaps not the best model but it used the communal idea -- sort of.

The ideas you suggest HAVE been used successfully .......
within Orthodox jewish communities (oy!--sorry I'm a New Yorker)....there are several self-sustaining communities just north of NYC.

I still feel that if you are trying to run this as a "monastic" community you will fail. If you try to run this as a Orthodox community your chances I feel will be greater. If you build a community with a monastry...all well and good, but don't forget the monastic gave up the world, while you are choosing to live within the world. Not to many years ago an old nun told me that not all people were made for the monastic life.... some of us were actually created for love, for family.

Ultimately, what will count is how we have lived our lives, not the manner of our lives but the care we have given our souls, our children's souls and how we have treated those with whom we have come into contact with. The solitary hermit was called to his life of solitude, but you, as a family men and women were called to live within the world.

If you want to know what it's like to live in an Orthodox village, my suggestion is to go visit Greece...not the big towns but the little ones. Where you just might find the examples you are looking for.....

[Justin Kissel]

I might add that if the first type of community discussed in this thread didn't work out, I think we should possibly consider a moral "typical" community (with normal homes, water, electric, phones, cars, secular jobs and/or self-employment, etc.), only as a faith community, being centered in prayer/working out our salvation. This seems like something that would be able to attract more people as well--not that attracting people is what I worry about, but I mention it only because there's probably a minimum number that should be had to make this work, and if there simply isn't enough interest in the first proposal, I think other options should be explored. Relocating and becoming part of a faith community/mission would be much easier, I'm sure, than asking someone to give up their job and living situation and move to the middle of nowhere and become a farmer. Again, just thinking out loud, I'll try to post more later after I've thought more about some more questions that have been brought up.

Justin

PS. I don't want anyone to think that I'm all of a sudden dropping support for the original proposal, but as another note, if it was a more "typical" community, less people would be needed to start it up, and less people would be needed to maintain it. We shall see though, much prayer is necessary!

[尼古拉前执事]

Lots of good points from all around. Liudmilla, you are a beacon of reality.

I have to agree, if you made it still hard, but not Amish-style you'd get more people and it would be more realistic to accomplish. Plus easier to get a priest.

For instance if you guys did this, have running water (I don't know how many of you have ever had to use leaves when going to the bathroom) and electricity but use the other ideas of a community cafeteria, a farm, a library with 1 phone for the community, etc.

That would still give struggle, but a struggle more could realisticly deal with IMO. Just my 2 cents.