Vesperal Divine Liturgies?

[Anastasios]

Liturgy could not be before midnight Anastasios and should be after sun-up. As for pre-sanctified Liturgies these are in fact Vesperal Liturgies, so thus they must be after noon.

You are just dogmatizing principles you think are universal. Most Orthodox Churches do Presanctified in the morning at least most of the time. That's just the way it developed. Moving it back to the evening is a result of............20th century liturgical theology! lol

Why can liturgy not be before Midnight, Nicholas? The day starts at sundown. You are ignoring that liturgy often starts before midnight when All Night Vigils are conducted in Greece--do you think they have someone with a watch saying, "sing that doxology slower, we still have 3 minutes to go!" Moving it back to 7 pm from midnight is not doing a big difference--to my knowledge the typikon says that Divine Liturgy is to be celebrated between 6th and 9th hour. Given that Orthodox often move the hours around, the "between midnight and noon" rule just seems to be a principle and rule of thumb.

Besides you keep citing the typikon but it has never been translated fully into English so where are you getting this information, anyway?

anastasios

anastasios

[хорист]

Besides you keep citing the typikon but it has never been translated fully into English so where are you getting this information, anyway?

anastasios

May I suggest two publications which can really help in working out Liturgics:

A Fieldguide to Orthodox Church Services (English/Russian)
by Dcn. Serge Arlievsky
http://www.travelingtreby.org/id17.htm

and

The Order of Divine Services (English)
by Peter Fekula and Matthew Williams
http://www.sjkp.org/search.php

[Monk George]

The ancient practice of the Church, as is still observed on Mouth Athos today, is that the Divine Liturgy must be completed before the sun begins to set, i.e., noon.

When celebrating the All Night Vigil, the Great Vespers commences at 10pm, progressing through all the hours, the inter hours, Matins, Typica, and finally the Divine Liturgy, which ends around 9am, well before noon. Yes, they do check their watches to make sure they begin at the proper time.

There are two types of Vesperal Liturgies. We use what I might call the classic form of the Vesperal Liturgy on the Eve of Nativity and Theophany, where Vespers is cut short with the Thrice Holy Hymn of the Divine Liturgy.

The Presanctified Liturgy is considerably different than this, since no consecration of the Mysteries takes place during this Liturgy.

Nevertheless, with both the Presanctified and the classic Vesperal Liturgy, the ancient rules stipulate they be celebrated after the setting of the sun. In ancient times, the Fathers fasted till the 9th hour, that is, 3pm. By celebrating the Presanctified around that time, they were able to keep this fasting rule.

• George, archimandrite

[尼古拉前执事]

Thank you Father George.

I would also recommend, among the other suggestions for books to read to understand the Divine Liturgy, A Manual of The Orthodox Church's Divine Services by Archpriest D. Sokolof which can be purchased at http://www.sjkp.org/search.php?static=2536

[Anastasios]

Of course, Hegumon George's excellent explanation of ancient practices does not correspond 100% with actual modern Greek practice (in Greece) where an All-night Vigil often starts around 4 pm with Small Vespers. We can argue that it is wrong but it's just the way people tell me it is done over there, unless people can show me that my sources are wrong.

anastasios

[尼古拉前执事]

Of course, Hegumon George's excellent explanation of ancient practices does not correspond 100% with actual modern Greek practice (in Greece) where an All-night Vigil often starts around 4 pm with Small Vespers. We can argue that it is wrong but it's just the way people tell me it is done over there, unless people can show me that my sources are wrong.

So you are saying that Modern Greeks under the EP are not following the Traditions of the Church then? :shock:

[Nektarios14]

Which modern greeks under the EP are you speaking of?