MP, ROCOR, ROAC, ROCiE, HOCNA Unification

[ania]

Breaking relations with World Orthodoxy would be a start. Oh, and if they stopped calling them schismatics and condemning them, that would help to! From the other side, I'm sure that once real and lasting changes were made in the MP, that the ROAC, etc. would be very happy to hear the MP's repentance, forgive them, and let them return to the Church.

Considering there was no ROAC at the time of the goings on of the MP, why on earth should the MP repent to ROAC??? That is just to much.
If their going to apologize to anyone, it will be ROCOR, not to ROAC... Man, what a riot.

[Seraphim Reeves]

Ania,

Considering there was no ROAC at the time of the goings on of the MP, why on earth should the MP repent to ROAC??? That is just to much.

I think the argument would be that ROAC is in a sense the "continuing ROCOR" - the part of ROCOR that didn't defect in the mid 90's.

If their going to apologize to anyone, it will be ROCOR, not to ROAC... Man, what a riot.

Frankly, ROCOR is no longer placing itself in a position to receive the repentence of the MP - it's already articulated the legitimacy of the MP as part of the "Russian Orthodox Church", and if anything has been itself doing all of the apologizing thus far (Archbishop Mark's activities as of late come to mind). I have little doubt that sometime in the relatively near future, communion (if not a complete administrative dismantlement of ROCOR...that will take a little longer) will be established between the two groups - and it will not involve ROCOR receiving the repentence of the MP, or the MP making any meaningful effort to separate itself either from ecumenism or (more particularly) the communion of those churches who see themselves as "organic parts" of the WCC/"Ecumenical movement".

IOW, even if one wants to believe (with much strain) that ROCOR has not fallen under it's own anathema (which is separate from the question of whether or not it was valid to begin with - as some OCA types would certainly debate), it will undoubtedly have yet another chance to do just this in the near future.

"To those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all branches or sects, or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy, commonly called ecumenism, under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!"

Seraphim

[Justin Kissel]

I must admit that I misread the question. I only skimmed it:

What would the MP have to do to be reunited with ROCA, ROCiE, and HOCNA?

I saw "ROAC" where the question actually asked about "ROCA". I guess my mind just isn't used to seeing ROCA grouped with ROCiE and HOCNA, but ROAC excluded. In any event, I didn't say that the MP had to repent to ROAC and ROAC alone, but by "etc." I meant all the other Churches that have come down to us from the Russian Tradition (but which are, unfortunately, not currently in communion or administratively one). When ROAC was formed is meaningless to this particular point, if you accept the premise that ROAC is in fact Orthodox (which I do). From my point of view, then, the MP needs to repent to all the Orthodox Christians they have scandalized, persecuted, attacked, and so forth. It doesn't matter if ROAC was created 80 years ago, or yesterday (and this point is itself in dispute, as some consider ROAC to be a continuation of ROCA). The point is this: that the MP has sinned, and ROAC was one of those effected. Therefore, ROAC, along with all the other groups, should await eagerly giving forgiveness to the MP, but the MP has to repent for them to grant such forgiveness and accept them back into communion. Of course they should apologize to ROCOR first and foremost, I never said they shouldn't (though at this point I don't think it would matter much). This is my fault, though, I shouldn't have put ROAC out front and merely implied ROCOR and others by the "etc."

[ania]

I think the argument would be that ROAC is in a sense the "continuing ROCOR" - the part of ROCOR that didn't defect in the mid 90's.

de·fect Pronunciation Key (dfkt, d-fkt) n.
intr.v. de·fect·ed, de·fect·ing, de·fects (d-fkt)
To disown allegiance to one's country and take up residence in another: a Soviet citizen who defected to Israel.
To abandon a position or association, often to join an opposing group: defected from the party over the issue of free trade.

I've been in ROCOR all my life, I don't remember defecting anywhere. My father, a priest, has been in ROCOR all his life, he doesn't remember defecting anywhere. My grandfather, a priest in ROCOR for over 30 years, does not remember defecting anywhere in the mid '90s.
If you mean, that perhaps they held one possition at a certain time, then after research, extensive investigations, trips to Russia, interviews, yada yada yada, they decided that the position needs revising, then yeah, maybe you've got something there. To claim that ROCOR(L) defected is bogus.
The defector was ROAC. Not even gonna get into ROCiE, HOCNA, etc etc.
As for repentance, etc... ROCOR still stands behind wanting it. We just don't harp on it, and we act like civilized human beings, in that we don't shout "Anathema!" every time an MP person comes into sight. All in due time.
As for Anathemas... Once again, I will repeat what I said many moons ago somewhere on this forum... If I search the cannons far back enough I could proclaim Anathema on my neighbors, their cats, and all who have associated with either. It doesn't mean antathemas aren't important, but if you haven't noticed, the anathema we use now isn't the same one used 50 years ago, or 50 years before that, or 50 years before that. Things CHANGE!!! Tis one of the beautiful things in life & it gives us hope.
And as for apologizing to all Orthodox Christians who they have scandalized??? My goodness, if you look at it like that, do I have to apologize to every person I've ever offended of a t-shirt I've worn, or having purple hair, or marching in anti-war protests??? Come ON, get real. Then everyone should be constantly running around, apologizing to everyone else, & not have time to scandalize, or do anything much at all, because no matter what you do, more than likely your very existance will offend someone.
ROAC didn't exist when the MP was sinning. Why should it then apologize to it??? Does this mean that I can go up to anyone who's ever offended my family, even before I was born, and demand they beg my forgiveness? Oooh, on second thought, this could be fun.
Anyway, ranting ranting ranting has made me miss my lunch... Subway here I come.
Anna

[尼古拉前执事]

Considering there was no ROAC at the time of the goings on of the MP, why on earth should the MP repent to ROAC??

Not in name, but the catacomb Church still existed and this is where the majority of ROAC comes from. I would hope no one here would say the MP does not owe major apologies to the Catacombniks!

[Seraphim Reeves]

Ania,

As for Anathemas... Once again, I will repeat what I said many moons ago somewhere on this forum... If I search the cannons far back enough I could proclaim Anathema on my neighbors, their cats, and all who have associated with either. It doesn't mean antathemas aren't important, but if you haven't noticed, the anathema we use now isn't the same one used 50 years ago, or 50 years before that, or 50 years before that. Things CHANGE!!! Tis one of the beautiful things in life & it gives us hope.

Taking the above for granted (which I do not, at least not entirely)... how should I put this... it was 1983. Not 1083, not 1583...1983. You're making it sound like ancient history.

This is beside the fact that the anathema of '83 is as timely as ever; what about this anathema can you think of that somehow no longer applies? Honestly, the only thing that could possibly do this would be for the most basic canons of logic to go out the window... or for the situation of the MP and "world Orthodoxy" to have actually changed (for the better that is.) Last time I checked, things have only worsened - there was no Chambesy agreement, no "agreed statement" by the OCA between the "Orthodox" and Roman Catholics on Baptism, etc, back in '83.

Seraphim

[ania]

Considering there was no ROAC at the time of the goings on of the MP, why on earth should the MP repent to ROAC??

Not in name, but the catacomb Church still existed and this is where the majority of ROAC comes from. I would hope no one here would say the MP does not owe major apologies to the Catacombniks!

I will grant you that the Catacomb Church & the MP have their issues to deal with. That some Catacombniki chose to follow Valentine, while others switched to the MP is another issue entirely. Those that followed Valentine should re-examine why they would follow a bishop who was in the MP at the time they were underground. Why didn't they follow their own bishops? Actually, I really don't have time to wonder why... work calls...