Why Traditionalist Orthodox MUST split from World Orthodoxy!

[CGW]

The problem, OOD, is that you cannot compare a bishop to the Fathers, but only to what you understand the Fathers to say. "Where the bishop is, there is the Church." Therefore, if I want to know what the Church says, to whom should I go: you or a bishop? And if I want to know what the Fathers say, to whom should I go: you or the Fathers?

You keep claiming, in essence, that you can speak for the Church. Nobody should take that claim at face value. You can say that you are with the Fathers, but nobody should take your word on that.As far as I'm concerned, you have no special authority, and you can take your place with all the other laymen in the various fora who clamor for me to accept their teachings.

[Justin Kissel]

CGW,

There's a difference between OOD and others who might "clamor" for you to accept these teachings. It is the same difference that divided Paul and the rest of the speakers when Paul spoke to the Greeks about Christianity.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

The problem, OOD, is that you cannot compare a bishop to the Fathers, but only to what you understand the Fathers to say.

Yes. And perhaps I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but when you consider the massive and countless volumes of writings of the Holy Fathers, and you take the time to start reading them, certain things become inescapably apparent.

For instance, you have been reading my responses. Perhaps you misunderstood something I said along the way, but generally, you understand exactly what I have said, or you don't care to know. Well, the fathers are not nearly as difficult to understand.

"Where the bishop is, there is the Church." Therefore, if I want to know what the Church says, to whom should I go: you or a bishop?

Indeed, who would you go to? Christ warned you to beware of many false prophets who will say, "Here is Christ" and "there is Christ". He is not speaking of God’s obvious enemies; He is not speaking of the materialists, of the communists, of the atheists, but of those who appear as friends of God, as Christians without being so in thuth. It is from them that Christ wishes to save the faithful, because they are His great enemies, the hypocrites, "those able to deceive".

Certainly you should not trust me. But if a bishop, which "bishop"? An Anglican bishop? An Luthern bishop?

Faced with such a problem, and with the faith that Christ has preserved His Church which abides in all truth, your answer is to pray and honestly seek those "Christians" who are the same today as they have always been, in faith, practice, hope, and most of all, love for God. This is primarily done by study; and study because you love the Lord and want to find Him with all your heart and all your soul.

You can laugh at this and say it is impossible, but what we will not allow you to do is to change the Gospel, to distort our religion and make it a servant of your own ends. We will never allow you to attribute worldly utility and expediency to our religion. "The Gospels do not speak of earthly things, but of heavenly things, teaching us a different life and polity, new riches and poverty, unprecedented freedom and bondage, another kind of life and death, a different world and other - not like Plato, who contrived that ridiculous Republic of his, nor like Zeno and the other politicians, philosophers, and lawmakers. For all of them had the following common attribute: they revealed that the evil spirit secretly inspired their souls. Our own conscience which protests proves that all their ideas were demonic devices, and all their teachings contrary to nature" (St. John Chrysostom, Homily I on the Gospel According to St. Matthew).

[CGW]

There's a difference between OOD and others who might "clamor" for you to accept these teachings. It is the same difference that divided Paul and the rest of the speakers when Paul spoke to the Greeks about Christianity.

If you are going to set OOD up as Paul, I must object. The bishop is an apostle; Paul is an apostle; but OOD is not an apostle.

[Daniel]

CGW,
The impression I get from your posts it that for you to accept what we are say as true we would have to be bishops. Am I correct in my observation or no?

Daniel

[CGW]

Ah, that word "accept".

When it comes to my acceptance, you would have to beat down my Anglican skepticism and comprehensivity, plus some other non-intellectual aspects which I don't care to trot out here. After all, this forum isn't about me being Anglican, but about you being Orthodox. There simply isn't enough time in the day for me to sustain a ten against one battle over my church.

The issue I'm trying to press here is about the way various people (and you seem to want to be included) are going about Orthodoxy. I don't think Chrysostom meant that he was free from the confines of cogent argument when he, um, made arguments about Plato. He who cited him was providing an interpretation of Chrysostom, in bringing Chrysostom to bear to support his own point. But I can read Chrysostom myself, and read the citation to a different meaning.

We operate here outside the collegiality of bishops. Instead of people who are or claim to be bishops contending, we do it as proxies. Or worse, we do it without them, and merely use them as placeholders for our political contention. And we do it in a context that encourages contention. As an outsider, I at least have to distinguish between theologically-driven contention, and contention-driven theology. You should too, and I think that what's going on here is, at least in part, the latter.But at least you shold be suspicious where you are now, I think, credulous. I see a symmetry which you, as Orthodox laymen, fail to see. For me to say, "Orthodoxy!" I have to get past the problem of "which Orthodoxy?" and it's not good enough to say, "well, the Fathers point to my Orthodoxy." Everyone says that, in the East.

[Etienne]

I have been following this thread with some disquiet, and while struggling to comprehend the various arguments and counter-arguments recalled a story related to me some years ago.

During the Latin occupation of The City (Constantinope) two friends were walking, when they saw a party of finely dressed nobles approaching. The Latin pointed a richly dressed man in the middle, and clearly wishing to impress his companion, said that this was one of their greatest theologians.

His Orthodox friend said little other than to indicate that the Latin should follow him. They walked, little by little, deeper and deeper into the poorer suburds, eventually reaching a street inhabited by only the poorest citizens. And stopping before an old woman washing her door step, the Greek turned and said, "And this is one of our greatest theologians".