Question for open discussion.....

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Chrysostomos
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Question for open discussion.....

Post by Chrysostomos »

In all my readings of the early Church Fathers, all through the councils, etc., I do not remember anyone who was eventually condemned a heretic or even deposed permanently or for a time, forming their own jurisdiction.

I will use the life of my saint, as an example:

St. John Chrysostom....

John drew some opponents who disagreed with him, one who later would go down in history as St. Cyril of Alexandria. His most bitter enemy was the empress Eudoxia. His preaching against the vanity of women and an accusation of his referring to the empress as another "Jezebel" made him very unpopular. The empress conspired with another of his enemies, Archbishop Theophilus of Alexandria, to have John deposed. In 403 Theophilus came to Constantinople with several Egyptian bishops. He gathered around him thirty-six bishops at Chalcedon who agreed to John's deposition. A letter was sent to Emperor Arcadius informing him of this decision along with an accusation of treason in having referred to the empress as a "Jezebel." The emperor issued an order that John be banished.

Glory be to God, that St. John Chrysostom, didn't go out and form his own Church. I am sure that all of us could come up with other examples as well. My question is this....

Is the forming of jurisdictions the residual effect of Protestant mindset infecting those who reside in America as Bishops, Priests, etc.?

That if you are deposed, or censured, then off you go, rather than using appeals or accepting by obedience the bishop's decision.

Why didn't we see this type of activity take place in the early church, before even the first 1000 years?

Why is it so prevalent today? Even the "Traditional Churches", outside of "World Orthodoxy" cannot agree on what is truly Orthodox as they banter about to grab the golden ring as to whom is the "True Church".
This would seem to be more of a Protestant mindset, would it not?

I look forward to your responses and discussion on this topic.

With humble bow,

Rd. Chrysostomos

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Post by bogoliubtsy »

I mostly agree with what you're saying. However, the Protestant mindset can't be to blame for the situation in Greece. I think it might partly have to do with the lack of Orthodox cooperation with rulers. In the past, splinter groups were denied the "right" to practice their faith. Often, the earthly side of Symphonia wouldn't allow this. Also, we live in an age of quick moving communication were people have the ability to know "church matters" in a matter of seconds. The information age, coupled with the decent education that many people have throughout the world, and then added to the fact that we live in an age of lawlessness and disobedience have all created a dangerous mixture. My 2 cents.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Chrysostomos,

Nestorius was deposed for heresy and started his Church.

The Dontasts started their chruch.

The Monophysite leaders were deposed and started their Church

The Ecumenists broke with Orthodoxy and started their church

ect, ect. ect.

And then there are True Orthodox who were deposed but were in fact the Church. Example are the Arsenites.

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Post by bogoliubtsy »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

Chrysostomos,

Nestorius was deposed for heresy and started his Church.

The Dontasts started their chruch.

The Monophysite leaders were deposed and started their Church

The Ecumenists broke with Orthodoxy and started their church

ect, ect. ect.

One difference. These elusive ecumenists have not been condemned by a council of the entire Church. The other folks you mentioned were.

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Post by Chrysostomos »

OOD,

You are correct in the first three. I agree with bogoliubtsy on the ecumenist issue.

The first three were condemned in regards to issues of dogma. Ecumenism, as my understanding, dialogue, is not an issue of dogma.
It's one thing to talk, another to commune.

I know you will bring up the canons, don't get me started. If you want to bring up canons, let discuss (don't really want to), when it comes to lets say attending liturgy...If I remember right, the canons stated that a Christian who stays away from the Liturgy for three Sundays in row is automatically excommunicated. There are other canons dealing with confession and the prescribed penance for various sins, which I don't hear much bantering about here on this board either. Because then, the focus is on the individual and not on the Church.

With humble bow,

Rd. Chrysostomos

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Chrysostomos,

I would normally have given you more substance in my reply but I am just buried today with work.

So forgive my sloppy response.

With regard to the canons, each one has "weight". Some are more important than others, and they are not "rules". So if you want to talk about canons, we will have to be specific.

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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Chrysostomos wrote:

It's one thing to talk, another to commune.

Then what do you make of the Antiochians who concelebrate and commune with monophysites? Or the MP that had an official policy of communing Roman Catholics? Just to name a few policies of communion.

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