I thought Orthodoxy teaches that we know where Christ and Grace is, but not where they are not. This was taught to me by my mentor when I was a catechumen, a Russian priest of the MP.
Al
Catholicisms Sacramental Validity
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OrthodoxyOrDeath
Al,
How many times have we heard this mistranslation? Ecumenists strain for anything to support their view, yet the testimony and vast witness of the fathers are ignored, denied, and overturned. "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."
"Grace and truth came by Jesus. They have forsaken the truth, in which the author of Proverbs boasts, saying, 'My throat shall meditate truth'; having embraced falsehood to themselves, it is clear that they have fallen away from grace." Acts of the Seventh Ecumenical Synod
Truly, just reading the canons relative to Baptism, it becomes obvious and irrefutable that the Church has always believed there is no Grace among heretics and schismatics.
People do not want to admit or say that the heresies they follow separate them from God, because in doing so, they will be forced to overturn everything comforatable in their lives.
These are the many people with the spirit of the world even among the traditional Orthodox Christians. When they discover that they have lost the comfort of this world's embrace, they will even cease being Orthodox, and will return to the world "as a dog to their own vomit" (as Holy Scripture describes). But still, many in the ecumenist church, who today are suffocating under the majestic domes of their secularized "Church," do find their way back to the humble, poor, scorned Church of Christ.
"Motivated by righteousness, the mind finds truth; but motivated by some passion, it will reject it." (St. Thalassios, Philokalia)
If the statement I made was a mistranslation...what is it a mistranslation from and in what language? What is the proper translation?
Did you ever play that childhood game in grade school where the first person whispered a statement into the ear of the second, then the second repeated it to the third, and so on. then the last person stated out loud what had been whispered to him/her. More often than not, the statement bore little resemblance to the original. Somehow I'm more comforted in the opinion of a priest or a bishop than in the opinion of a lay person. If you were to ask 10 lay people whether the Holy Virgin lived a sinless life, you'd likely get different answers (opinions). Ask the same question to 10 priests and you'll likely get the same answer...yes, by her own free will and with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Mother never sinned.
I believe whole heartedly that the Church, despite it's being the Body of Christ, does not know ALL that is in the Mind of Christ. I think there is a substantial amount of truth in "we do not know where Christ and Grace is not." And I'm not willing to venture an opinion on a subject that is theologically far more complicated than it appears.
Just my opinion.
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OrthodoxyOrDeath
Al,
I believe whole heartedly that the Church, despite it's being the Body of Christ, does not know ALL that is in the Mind of Christ. I think there is a substantial amount of truth in "we do not know where Christ and Grace is not." And I'm not willing to venture an opinion on a subject that is theologically far more complicated than it appears.
Someone else in our synod answers such: I want to make clear what I mean by “Grace”. I mean the Grace of sacraments. I do not deny, and never have denied, that God may give Grace to people outside the Church. Cornelius received the Grace of the Holy Spirit before he was baptised. Everyone who is converted to the truth of Orthodoxy and becomes a catechumen has already been enlightened by Grace to some degree. But those outside the Church do not have the Grace of sacraments.
I am also prepared to admit the possibility that even when a community has been anathematised by a true and valid anathema, God may still protect certain individuals within that community from the full force of the anathema for a longer or shorter period. I would only argue that if God, Who is the Sovereign and Maker of the law, makes exceptions to His law, that is no reason for us, who are not privy to His secret judgements, not to keep the law. And the law was stated by the Lord Himself as follows: “If he shall neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily, I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matthew 18.17-18 ). In other words, we should treat those anathematised by the Church as outside the Church and not deserving the honour of Christians (which is not to say, of course, that we should not pray for their eventual return). And Holy Tradition makes it crystal clear that those cast out in this way have no sacraments (Apostolic canons 46 and 47).
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PFC Nektarios
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How did I come to decided to covert to Orthodoxy?
Well, I started to attend a Byzantine Catholic Church, was chrismated in the Byzantine Catholic Church, later along the line, a friend of mine who is very orthodox in practice and thought, expressed her opinion to me that she doesnt believe in the Papal Doctrines, are the other Wester Doctrines, Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, ect... She gave me the Primacy of Peter, and I read a few chapters of a non-biased book on Christian History at ccel.org, and I found out what the papacy was then and what it is now, and they didnt match up, so I started to think more about coverting to Orthodoxy, then I came into contact with a ROCOR Hieromonk and we have been talking, and he is basically my long distance spiritual father, and I decided to become Orthodox by either being recieved into Orthodoxy by ROCOR or the Jerusalem Patriarchate.
Thats my Story.
In Christ
God Bless Your Decision
Dear Orthodox Learner,
God bless your decision to become Orthodox. With ROCOR in communion with the Jerusalem and Serbian chruches, and poised for organic reunion with the Russian Church, we may someday share the Communion Cup.
Al
PS: Don't ever conceed papal primacy/superiority to the Vatican religion!!
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PFC Nektarios
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- Joined: Mon 1 December 2003 3:14 pm