Appeal of the First Heirarch of the ROAC to ROCOR(L)

[CGW]

If I'm not mistaken there are canons against praying with heretics.

Well, of course there are, though if one were to poke around long enough I'm sure that one could find some canon or another that was being violated by some hierarch somewhere in every church, and which violation was being tolerated or ignored for whatever reason. Surely the violation itself cannot be construed as heresy per se, because then Donatism would be largely a moot point. To sin would be to espouse heresy. So where does all this heresy come from?

[Daniel]

If I'm not mistaken there are canons against praying with heretics.

Well, of course there are, though if one were to poke around long enough I'm sure that one could find some canon or another that was being violated by some hierarch somewhere in every church, and which violation was being tolerated or ignored for whatever reason. Surely the violation itself cannot be construed as heresy per se, because then Donatism would be largely a moot point. To sin would be to espouse heresy. So where does all this heresy come from?

I don't have time right this moment to come up with a complete thought, but....

Praying with heretics puts oneself on the same level as them, you essentially affirm you share the same faith, so on and so forth.

[CGW]

Praying with heretics puts oneself on the same level as them, you essentially affirm you share the same faith, so on and so forth.

I can't speak for the EP, but when I personally pray with others I do not affirm that I believe exactly what they believe. Indeed, the premise of ecumenism is that this is not so (though it also asserts that there is an essential similarity).

It is not accurate to tell another what the other intends their actions to signify, so I don't see the heresy here.

[Daniel]

Praying with heretics puts oneself on the same level as them, you essentially affirm you share the same faith, so on and so forth.

I can't speak for the EP, but when I personally pray with others I do not affirm that I believe exactly what they believe. Indeed, the premise of ecumenism is that this is not so (though it also asserts that there is an essential similarity).

It is not accurate to tell another what the other intends their actions to signify, so I don't see the heresy here.

Before I go any further with this discussion...

Are we talking about going to someones house for dinner and the the non-Orthodox host saying a short prayer before the meal?

Or, getting together with some protestants and a latin or two and all praying together in one group, or something similar to this?

[CGW]

Are we talking about going to someones house for dinner and the the non-Orthodox host saying a short prayer before the meal?

Or, getting together with some protestants and a latin or two and all praying together in one group, or something similar to this?

I don't see these as distict situations, frankly.

[Daniel]

Are we talking about going to someones house for dinner and the the non-Orthodox host saying a short prayer before the meal?

Or, getting together with some protestants and a latin or two and all praying together in one group, or something similar to this?

I don't see these as distict situations, frankly.

If you want take a look at this essay entitled Prayer with the Non-Orthodox. I would post the whole thing, but this thread is getting seriously off topic.

[CGW]

I'm not getting off-topic. And I don't think trying to get a dispensation to eat dinner with your heterodox acquaintances is really going to matter here anyway.

Everything continues to rest on making distinctions between different sorts of canonical infractions. Praying with heretics is an infraction, but so is continuing to exercise one's office after one is defrocked. And if roving across jurisdictions is not technically a fault, it is plainly questionable; I can hardly think that St. Pachomius would have approved.

I don't think that any of these are offenses of heresy; they all look like disciplinary issues to me. Or perhaps political offenses. After all, the true issue in all of this is who gets to lay claim to The Church. And in that light, political motivations pop out of everything and everything takes on a different meaning. Valentin must defeat the legitimacy of ROCOR's defrocking of him, so he is forced to deny the present legitimacy of ROCOR. And since ROCOR is now trying to erase the line between them and the MP (as they are ultimately expected to) it is sufficient to accuse them of the dreaded ecumenism.

It should be obvious that the starting point in this is nothing about heresy, but rather the irregularities of Valentin's personal situation. And I just don't see how they can be made to work. It requires a miracle of coincidental timing, if you will pardon the expression.

Refusing to pray with heretics is an act of disrespect, so I don't think any amount of taking around that point is going to be successful. And in the large, it is a political act.