New Juris poll

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What Church are you either a member of or going to be joining?

ROCOR/ROCA

16
43%

HOCNA

0
No votes

ROAC

4
11%

ROCiE

1
3%

GOC (Chrysostomos II)

3
8%

GOC (Lamia)

0
No votes

GOC (Mathewite)

0
No votes

GOC (Other)

0
No votes

TOC (Cyprianites)

1
3%

World Orthodoxy

5
14%

Heterodox

1
3%

Other (Please Explain)

6
16%
 
Total votes: 37

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Seraphim Reeves
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Posts: 493
Joined: Sun 27 October 2002 2:10 pm
Location: Canada

Creating waves...

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

I think a wrong emphasis is being placed on the immersion/pouring debate.

What is best said, I think, is that Orthodoxy has a problem with any sort of "minimalism" or attempt to discern what's the least we (or the Church Herself) can "get away with" when it comes to the salvation of souls.

Liturgically, post-schism Roman Christianity has been doing precisely the opposite - forever widdling down liturgical services, trying to divine just what is the "least" they can get away with doing, in order to keep everything "valid"...even when an obvious consequence of such a quest, is to diminish the clarity of the Christian Revelation.

This is the real problem with the latter day Latin pratice of considering "baptism by pouring" a normal means of receiving people into their church. It is also at least part of the problem, with the only recently modified Latin practice of only giving communion "under one species" during their Mass. Even their own "Catechism of the Catholic Church" recognizes this (at least to an extent), by saying that the practice of "batism by immersion" and giving communion "under both kinds" better expreses what these sacraments are supposed to be about.

The practice of Baptizing someone by pouring water over their head, as ancient documents like the Didache make clear, was never considered the ideal, but a contingency when the necessity arose...for example, if there was some real scarcity of water, or if someone had become so feeble that immersing them might kill them or adversly harm their health.

But there is a big problem with making rules out of exceptions... they are exceptions, precisely because they're supposed to be exceptional. As such, to make them "the norm" cannot but cause certain goods only conveyed by "the norm" to be lost in the process.

For while it is true the symbolism of the Holy Trinity, and to a degree, "washing" is maintained by "baptism by pouring", look how much is lost! The Scriptures tell us that spiritually, Baptism causes buriel with Christ, the death of the old man - can pouring a little water on someone's forehead convey this? The same Holy Scriptures say that Baptism is a new birth, a spiritual birth, with a similtude to our birth from the womb - can simply putting three little aspersions of water on someone's head convey this in sign? And while Baptism is ultimatly not the phsyical washing of a man, what better symbolizes the complete interior washing that is occuring - a little water over one part of a man, or his being totally plunged into water?

So you see, much is lost, when this practice is resorted to. Thus it is incredible, that a genuine "Church" would choose to make this the norm. Only a spirit of hyper-minimalism, could even begin to make the introduction of such a practice the norm.

Of course, all of this is to some extent secondary, to the more basic problem of heterodox baptisms, when taken on their own merit.

What should also be kept in mind, is the truth that historically, the Orthodox Church has accepted, via economy, converts from Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, and other western schisms, who were undoubtedly "baptized" in their former religions by "pouring." The late heiromonk, Fr.Seraphim Rose (whose pastors in Christ were certainly not ecumenists; his reception into Orthodoxy was, in fact, ultimatly under the care of St.John (Maximovitch)) was a relatively modern example of this.

Seraphim

paleocon
Newbie
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri 8 August 2003 3:13 pm

Post by paleocon »

For Latin Trad,
Read "I Confess One Baptism".

Some help with the author; I don't feel like finding the book at the moment...

Monk George
Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun 26 October 2003 12:50 am

From the Spiritual Meadow

Post by Monk George »

St. John Moscos (c. 619 AD), "The Spiritual Meadow" (Selections from the Spiritual Meadow, Eastern Orthodox Books, Willits, CA 1976 (reprint of 1856 edition):

[St. John relates how a certain Jew was traveling with some Christians to be baptized and fell mortally ill in a waterless desert. The dying Jew begged that he not be allowed to die without baptism. ]

"They answered that there was no one amongst them that could baptize him, as this mystery could not by any means be administered without water, which could not be had in those burning sands; but as he still persevered in begging and praying with many tears that they would not be so cruel as to suffer him to die without making him a Christian, one of the company, inspired as we may believe from heaven, desired the rest to lift and hold him up, for he was not able to stand, when filling both his hands with sands, he poured it upon his head in three outpourings, repeating at the same time the form of words used by the Church in the administration of baptism, to which all the company answered, Amen. When behold, the man who was dying was suddenly healed...

(A)s soon as they entered into Palestine and came to the city of Ascalon, they carried the convert to the holy bishop Dionysius, recounting to him all that had happened.The good prelate glorified the Lord for His goodness and mercy shown on this occasion; but after consulting with his clergy, he concluded that as neither scripture nor tradition allow of administering baptism otherwise than in water, the man ought to be baptized in water in the manner prescribed by the Church; and for greater solemnity he sent him away to the banks of the Jordan, that he might be baptized in the same font wherein our Lord Himself was baptized."

[The above is an example of clinical baptism, which if death is threatening, then one may receive a triple pouring onto one's self as baptism, as provided for by the Holy Apostles in the Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. However, the universal canon of the Church always gives proper baptism to those who live afterwards, as was done above.]

Fr. George

"Obedience is Life and the Opposite is also True."

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

ROCOR here--which I will remain a part of :)

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Mary Kissel
Member
Posts: 444
Joined: Fri 20 December 2002 12:42 am
Location: Latrobe PA
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Post by Mary Kissel »

I'm ROCOR too :)

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