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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Rdr. Chrysostomos,

I just read the article you linked to.

For the most part, it was not a substantial treatment of the issue of heterodox baptism itself, but an apologia for the involvement of the EP and others in the ecumenical movement, and a very ill put denunciation of the alleged "schismatics" who vehemently object to this.

The following is a quote from the article...

The bottom line to the article by Metropolitan Khrapovitsky is that heterodox Baptisms have historically been recognized according to the Canons of the Church and may still be so recognized as determined by the Bishop.

This is at best, a very vague statement regarding the practice of economy in the reception of converts - at worst, I suspect it's intentionally vague.

In saying that Metropolitan Anthony understood that the Orthodox Church historically considered hetherodox baptisms "valid", the reader could easily be left with a view which is clearly outside of of not only the thought of Metropolitan Anthony, but of the Fathers who address this issue.

What could be considered "valid" and "recognized" in the cases of some hetherodox "baptisms" is the form used. In this sense, and this sense alone, the article would be correct.

However, this is not how the term "valid" is understood by most people - particularly since many still labour under a form of sacramental discourse which is basically lifted from the Roman Catholics, and which in many ways is alien to the Holy Tradition of the Church (but does, sadly, gain some prevelence in westernized Russia during the 19th century, where a lot of other strange things also appeared due to western european influences.) "Valid" in such a framework, would be understood as "true" - that is to say, the heterodox really do afford the remission of sins, and integration in any sense to the Body of Christ, with their "baptisms." This is not only incorrect, it is heretical - as it's direct, unavoidable consequence is to recognize formal, unmistakable hetherodoxy and schism as having a participation in the Body of Christ - that is to say, these groups are, in some wise, "real churches" (which is a branch-theorist notion one could just have easily lifted from the Anglicans as they could have the updated teaching of the Roman Catholics via Vatican II) or as the RC's would now put it, "real churches that are in imperfect communion with Rome" (or in this case, replace Rome with "EP" or "canonical heirarchs of the Orthodox Church", etc.)

This is, unfortunately, how economy in the reception of formerly heterodox converts is popularly misunderstood in our times - a misunderstanding which cannot but be said, to be fostered intentionally by the words and deeds of ecumenist heirarchs in what you and many others would (falsely) call "canonical Orthodoxy."

Such an understanding of "economy" is non-sensical, btw. - it makes it sound as if, when the Church decides to receive converts in this way, they are somehow recognizing a "real grace" that is already there. This makes totally incomprehensible then, practice in former times, regarding the same classes of converts, by a more strict means (for example, when the Greeks almost without exception, would put Latin converts through the full rites of initiation, including the waters of Baptism). This is Hopko-ism to the extreme, and besides being abusive towards logic and clear thinking, it does not correspond to the actual practice of the Church throughout the ages.

Sadly, this is the obscurant veil that much of ecumenism hides behind (along with protestations that they are "really trying to bring the heterodox into Orthodoxy"), and is usually marketed solely for the benefit of it's more "traditionally minded" members/victims, who are perhaps coming to some realize that what "Father did last Sunday when the Copts visited" or what they hear coming out of places like St.Vladimir's, or what they saw at some recent (ir)religious congress of varying "denominations" and religions, was "not quite right" and disturbed their conscience.

Seraphim

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Nevski,

Poor logic again, OOD. It does not logically follow from the fact that Catholics may wed Orthodox without converting that their baptism is "vaild" in the sense you so desperately want it to mean. Your logic may be "simple," and that is the problem, for in being "simple" it is not sound.

Nevski, in case you do not understand this, the Mystery of matrimony cannot exist save between two Baptized Christians. For example, if a husband converts to Orthodoxy, but his wife remains a pagan, their marriage is still not a Holy Mystery/sacramental, until she converts (then their marriage can receive the Church's blessing.) His union is not fornication, but it is not the Holy Mystery either.

Hence, if an "Orthodox" Church is pretending to give this type of blessing to the union of a heterodox person and an "Orthodox" Christian, there is obviously the understanding that the one spouse is indeed a "Baptized Christian." You pooh-pooh the obvious logic here, but I doubt you can refute it - since it's self evident, I don't think you possibly could. The only way you could, is to show that what is going on in such cases is not an attempt to confer the Holy Mystery of Marriage upon these two people, but some other type of "celebration".

Btw., I didn't see any of your thoughts on my article (from the website of the Monophysite "British Orthodox Church"), regarding the "canonical release" of an Antiochian "Orthodox" priest to the "juristiction" of the BOC (Monophysites)? Here we see in deed, precisely what the agreements between the Antiochians and the Monophysites amount to - mutual recognition, and a material communion between the two, without either dissolving into an "administrative" unity. It's quite obvious, the Antiochians have transgressed into grotesque heresy, at a synodal level.

Yet, your church is in communion with these people. What do you think the Fathers would say that makes of them (Antiochians), and you?

Seraphim

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Seraphim,

It seems the passions have overtaken Nevski's reasoning faculties - I doubt a logical discussion is possible or even desired by him.

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Post by Nevski »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

Nevski,

So you have no significant response to this official document, which espouses an ecclesiastical heresy, except your own opinion? And this opinion has not been credited with a single example showing anyone at all in the OCA who does not accept this document and what it has to say.

Very well.

But is that an offical OCA document?: that's what I'd asked for.

Let me help you out here: the document you linked was produced by something called "The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation," one of many ecumenical groups devoted principally to the discussion of theoretics and whose "agreed statements" and "declarations" are essentially meaningless. They are little more than thought experiments crafted with the view of hoping to advance ecumenical relations and hopefully, some day, reconciliation with those outside of the Orthodox Church. St. Vlad's was apparently involved in the aforesaid Consulation, but so what? As Peter Hatala has noted, there is widespread sentiment in the OCA that, while St. Vlad's is a top notch school (more designed to create an environment of Orthodox academics than priestly formation), much of what several of its notables say in ecumenical-related statements represents just so much idle speculation and sentimental well-wishing.

It is the bishops of the Orthodox Church in America who "make policy," as it were, and they do so on the basis of the canons of the church as applied through the application of oikonomia, something Orthodox bishops have done since time immemorial. You super-trads don't happen to like the way certain bishops in SCOBA have applied oikonomia on such things as the practice of baptism, but that's OK, because as the OCADOS article linked above implies, those bishops are not answerable to you. (They are especially not answerable to schismatics.)

When a Roman Catholic Christian is received into the Orthodox Church in America through chrismation, it is not to imply that his Roman baptism is recognized as "valid." The theoretics behind the practice is that chrismation corrects whatever "deficiencies" exist with respect to that baptism. The baptism is certainly recognized on a certain level, but that is not to say that its "vaildity" is recognized. It's a nuanced thing to be sure, but the fundamentalist or super-trad mind doesn't deal well with nuance.

Gotta run. More later.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Nevski,

When a Roman Catholic Christian is received into the Orthodox Church in America through chrismation, it is not to imply that his Roman baptism is recognized as "valid." The theoretics behind the practice is that chrismation corrects whatever "deficiencies" exist with respect to that baptism. The baptism is certainly recognized on a certain level, but that is not to say that its "vaildity" is recognized. It's a nuanced thing to be sure, but the fundamentalist or super-trad mind doesn't deal well with nuance.

If you cannot tell, character assasination is getting you nowhere. If anything, it's obscuring whatever good points you may be trying to make.

Sacramental economy is certainly not foreign to us "fundamentalists." Metropolitan Anthony (first presiding heirarch of the ROCOR) wrote what was perhaps the modern masterpiece on this subject.

The reason why such "economy" is generally not practiced by "super-trads", is...

  • it is just that, "economy"; thus exactitude is "the rule", and it's not something that needs a whole lot of apologies to put into effect, if that is what a Bishop or Synod feels is appropriate.

  • it has been heavily misunderstood, and intentionally distorted in modern times by the "Orthodox" ecumenists. While I will grant that the perspective you put forward is "better than most" (you need only go to certain other forums to see what most "canonical Orthodox" now believe on this subject, precisely because this is what their parish priest is teaching, and what they are informed of in the seminaries and academic conferences), it still "wiggles" more than it should. You speak in terms of "what is lacking" or "deficiency"; do you mean, the lack of grace, or are you trying to be ambiguous?

If the "whatever is lacking" view (as if there was some kind of "half grace" that the heterodox could receive from their "baptism") is true (in the ecumenistic sense), or the outright "papists have true mysteries" view is valid, then there is absolutely no room for "exactitude". If anything, it is an abuse, a sacrelige even - for the Apostolic Canons teach, to baptize someone who has already been truly baptized, is sacrelige, and is to be severely punished.

OTOH, said Canons also teach that heterodox baptism is a "pollution by the un-Godly", and not to be recognized as a true Baptism.

Given this, people can talk about "nuances" or the alleged sophistication of their views - but in the end, it is a matter of whether or not one accepts or disregards the indisputable fact, affirmed by every single Holy Father who touches upon this topic, that there is no salvation outside of the Church of Christ, and that the "sacraments" of the heterodox and schismatics are empty vessels; thus, when receiving former heretics, there is no crime in "re-baptizing" them (for in substance, a heterodox baptism is simply a bathing of the flesh, which St.Peter tells us is not what we value Baptism for - it's the grace of Baptism which is of fundamental importance). If the Church has shown leniency for pastoral reasons, it is She (and not the heterodox) which births said convert, giving grace the already imposed form.

This is the faith of the Church of Christ - who are we as individuals to deny this?

Seraphim

Nevski
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Post by Nevski »

Nevski wrote:

Gotta run. More later.

Here's the "more" of which I spoke:

A super-trad once said the following to Bishop Tikhon:

Perhaps then I could finally get an answer as to how one, such as the author of this message, can defend the argument that heretic baptisms have Grace.

to which His Grace responded:

Why, I've never defended an argument that heretic baptisms have Grace. What an idea! What I have done is defended the practice of the Church of Russia (and others, including Constantinople and
Antioch of old) in receiving, for example, Lutheran and Roman Catholic
heretics into the Church by Confession of Faith, Life's Confession,
Absolution, Chrismation and the Eucharist. The reason I defend that is
that, as an Orthodox Bishop, I promised to be true to the Traditions I
received and not to do anything apart from what my brother Bishops have done.

His Grace frequently refers to the following article, among other sources, as a means of explaining the practice and views of the OCA. The reference to St. Basil is most important in it. I expect few here will find the article satisfactory, but I think it nevertheless affords some needed clarity to this discussion, and with it, I am done with this particular exchange:

http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiolog ... n-ch4.html

Anthony
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Post by Anthony »

All I know from first hand experience is that the local OCA priest over here advocates use of the birth control pill for married couples and praises Martin Luther as a great man in his sermons. Yes, I have heard him say that.

In Christ,
Anthony

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