Appeal of the First Heirarch of the ROAC to ROCOR(L)

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canonical
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Post by canonical »

Pouring, Sprinkling, and other such things, or only exceptions to the rule. Christ said to baptize (immerse, dunk, dip, etc) in the name of the Father (once), and of the Son (twice), and the Holy Spirit (thrice).

***I know that a precedent was set with Christ's baptism in the Jordan River by St. John the Forerunner. But do not all of the icons show Christ standing in the water with St. John POURING the water over Christ's head? That's not exactly full immersion or dunking or dipping, is it? :wink:

***And where in the Bible did Christ specify that the baptism he ordered the Apostles to perform had to be by full immersion, or full dunking, or full dipping, etc. Specific quote, please.

Daniel
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Post by Daniel »

canonical wrote:

***And where in the Bible did Christ specify that the baptism he ordered the Apostles to perform had to be by full immersion, or full dunking, or full dipping, etc. Specific quote, please.

Baptize in Greek means to dip

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

"Canonical",

I know that a precedent was set with Christ's baptism in the Jordan River by St. John the Forerunner. But do not all of the icons show Christ standing in the water with St. John POURING the water over Christ's head? That's not exactly full immersion or dunking or dipping, is it?

I know many late medieval/renaisance Latin paintings show this, but I'm curious which Icons you're thinking of.

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I looked all over, but every festal Icon I could find of the Theophany, without exception, shows Christ being pushed under the water by St.John's hand (perhaps you confused his hand being upon His Head, as being "pouring" - if you look carefully, it is not.)

The Iconography of the Church is one of the ways that the Holy Tradition is passed down through time - I find it hard to believe "Orthodox controversialists" on this subject (who argue rightly against the normative practice of "Baptism by pouring", which is at best an act of economy when necessity merits it) would not have noticed that the Icons of the Church portray Christ being Baptized by "pouring", if this was in fact what was pictured in the Theophany Icons.

And where in the Bible did Christ specify that the baptism he ordered the Apostles to perform had to be by full immersion, or full dunking, or full dipping, etc. Specific quote, please.

The Greek word baptizo means to "immerse" or "submerge" - it can in no way be construed as to mean pouring. While some argue (falsely) that it simply means "washing", this is a misunderstanding - it is an example of taking the secondary usage of the word, and confusing it with it's primary meaning. The reason why the term could be used commonly with the understanding of simply "washing" is in large part one limited to a particular historical context - for example, if a man wanted to wash his hands in the ancient world, or wash his body, there were neither faucet taps nor showers to do this with; rather, he would have to plunge his hands into a washing basin full of water, or take himself out to a river and take a little swim.

If you do not want to take my word for this (on what baptizo in fact means), here is the entry on baptizo from the well respected Strong's Greek New Testament Concordance...

Baptizo (Strong's #907)

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

Not to be confused with [Strong's #] 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.

Putting aside Mr.Boice' obvious Reformed-Protestant/Non-denominational bias against the Biblically self evident teaching of Baptismal Regeneration, the insight into the actual meaning of the term is sound, and agrees with everything else I've read on the subject. If you'd like to see the online Strong's entry on this for yourself, you can find it here.

Seraphim

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CGW
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Post by CGW »

Daniel wrote:

Baptize in Greek means to dip

Well, in this context it would appear to mean "to baptize".

Consider that in looking at half a dozen bibles I see that very many of them use "baptize", including the Vulgate. I see four different meanings in the American Heritage Dictionary for "baptize". Etymology is not destiny.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

CGW,

Well, in this context it would appear to mean "to baptize".

Consider that in looking at half a dozen bibles I see that very many of them use "baptize", including the Vulgate. I see four different meanings in the American Heritage Dictionary for "baptize". Etymology is not destiny.

This is because, like many things which find their begining in another cultural context, the term is simply imported - so as to take with it all of the accumulated significance attached to the term.

This is particularly the case with the importing of proper names (ex. "Jesus".)

However, to ignore what the first Christians (who wrote in Greek) chose to say of this mystery is hard to accept. They spoke as they did (baptizo) precisely because this is what they did - they submered people, three times, into water, while reciting certain prayers for the remission of sins. The term is destiny as you put it, precisely because it describes what they were doing.

If we can take it upon ourselves to pervert the original intent of Apostles, why not deem all sayings on this subject...thus, hosing down someone with an aerosal can of bug spray can also be a "baptism", solely because we choose to call it such?

Seraphim

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Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Whenever I see discussions like this, I am reinforced in the knowledge as Christ said, that some people don't want the truth, but have stopped up their ears so that they may believe fanatasies.

It is a good thing seraphim, that there was not some rouge iconographer who made an icon of a pouring over Christ in the Eastern church somewhere along the way, because todays renovators would shroud it in flowers, or better yet, neon lights, hightlight and magnify it, and be saying: "look see, the Church always accepted this."

Funny how we are forced to address such anamolies in great detail and the renovators can overlook the vast witness.

But I am convinced that people battle these truths because they feel if they are forced to admit their leaders teach error, they will also have to begin to admit that they follow error. And everyone, myself included, has a tendency to portray themselves as shameless.

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CGW
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THere's Always a Rabbi

Post by CGW »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

Whenever I see discussions like this, I am reinforced in the knowledge as Christ said, that some people don't want the truth, but have stopped up their ears so that they may believe fanatasies.

"Fanatasies"? Freudian slip, maybe?

My conclusion is, "There will always be a rabbi."

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