Fasting

[尼古拉前执事]

What history tells you this Thomas?

[Anastasios]

In history I see a consistent application of rules that will benefit mankind's salvation, with only OCCAISONAL lapses into "legalism".

Particular canons can be changed but the canons reflect the Canon which is the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; kanon in Greek meaning a measuring rod against which we base ourselves. For instance, there are canons against marrying one's cousin. This reflects the Canon of Marriage which is that it is a free and open, mutually consenting act; if one were to marry his cousin it would not be open (keeping it in one family) and consent might be lacking. etc etc etc.

anastasios

[Savva24]

When did these fasting rules first become a parrt of the Orthodox Church (i.e. in a Canon or some other document related to the LAITY (not to how a monk should live))?

My guess is that it happened after the 4th century when Orthodoxy was hi-jacked and turned into another arm of the State. Along with the laity adopting "monastic piety", as the so-called "highest form of Christian life", they also began to accept the "cult of saints" and the "cult of relics" which came to overshadow the true meaning of Christian worship-- the Eucharistic Banquet. Now that we're aware of this 4th century deviation and realize that Orthodox has been a "mystery cult" for 1600 years, we can correct it through liturgical archaeology and a rediscovering of the real meaning of Christian worship and practice. This is the only way to overcome our current crisis.

Josh you rock. It seemed obvious to me that you were joking. It is good to see you here again.

Tom. I am at a loss to understand why you are even Orthodox. Your view, if in complete agreement with Josh's mock oppinion, is not only similar to, but identical to Protestantism. Is it because you are ethnically Greek? the church services are pretty niffty? Maybe it is because Slavic women are so darn attractive and you can't stay away . Just kidding. Seriously I hope you do come around. I remember that you used to respect Orthodox Tradition once upon a time. Now you seem to want to attack everything that is not directly spelled out in the New Testement, even the fasting regulations of the Church .

With prayers and good will.

Nicholas (savva)

[TomS]

Thank you for your prayers Nicholas.

I am still Orthodox and I have no problem with the Orthodox Faith as defined in the Creed and many Church Traditions. It's just that I am discovering that too many "traditional" Orthodox are very similar to RC's; They want to be spoon-fed everything and reject anything historically that does not fit in with this "perfect" religion. It's like they can't handle the chaos of the "real world" and in Orthodoxy they have found a refuge where they are no longer asked or required to think.

It is so different from what I hear from some Orthodox Priests that I talk with. They acknowledge the problems and inconsistencies in the Church and its history, yet still accept the Church as the "True Church" - AS DO I

I just think that understanding that not all things that have happened in the Church's history has been "of the Holy Spirit". As I have said over and over -- the Church is administered on this earth by sinful men, and since they still DO have FREE WILL, sometimes they do not do what they are supposed to do.

St. Paul ADMITS this, why should we expect that it has been any different for others who have toiled for the Church?

And No, I am not Greek. I was raised Baptist and converted to Orthodoxy after marrying a Greek woman.

[priestmark]

Well now that we have the liberal protestant response from Tom, shellfish were not considered animals because they have no backbone and this is why worms and other bugs are allowed during a fast.

Yes, “no backbone” is a useful categorization – but why?

Actually, Tom, it's because shellfish were cheap and abundant in the Mediterreanean area and so fasting by eating them saved money which was used to give to the poor.
anastasios

Well, now that we have the liberal orthodox response…

Seriously, I have been hearing this “cheap and plentiful” line on the ORTHODOX list for 15 years. It is simply not adequate and too materialistic. A common corollary argument is that shellfish should be prohibited because they are now costly. Sure, some shellfish are expensive and to spend money on such unnecessary luxuries rather than to give alms is sinful extravagance. But not all shellfish are costly. I buy really nice clean squid or mixed “seafood”at the Korean Market for less than $4 a pound (everyday, and on sale for half that). Also I could buy live shellfish at the Vietnamese store for less, and frozen for far less than this (but I am not inclined to the live product, and am not yet brave enough for some of the frozen stuff - e.g. bricks of miniscule shrimp and bags of sea floor scrapings). But still, cost has nothing to do with it! Tom makes a good point:

So then, the purpose of fasting is economics based? So this means that there is no real reason not to eat read meat, just eat a cheaper cut on fasting days?

The allowance of shellfish is not the result of its "easy accessiblity"

Tell them because men who were hung up on legalistic rules made them up.

The allowance of shellfish is also not because of those who "wrote" the rules.

The eating of blood or of strangled animals (which have not been bled - and by extension roadkill, or deer or other hunted animals that have not been properly field-dressed and bled) is specifically forbidden by the Apostles in Acts 15:20 – but not just because the Apostles were referring to that which was offered to idols. The fathers make a strong connection between blood and passions. Foods that contain blood stir the passions and so we refrain from them when fasting. Conversely, the invocation and strengthening of the passions was (and still is) the very reason such fare was/is used by pagans.

Shellfish and other invertebrates do not have blood (as we know it) and so in consuming them we do not consume a food that invigorates the passions. This is why they are not prohibited on fast days. Refraining from foods which contain blood facilitates the weakening of the passions. Fish has blood but typically not bloody flesh. Fish is allowed on great feasts during fasting periods when the Vigil is served - such as yesterday, Friday, for St Nicholas Day. The reason is for strengthening and the subsequent refreshing in festal joy after the labor of the long services. See also http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... ight=#8237 for similar explanation regarding oil and wine days. Of course this relaxation of the fast presumes attendance at services.

Foods which give us plenty of energy (especially animal products), provide energy for the passions too. By denying the body some of this energy, we deny the passions some of their strength. During Great Lent, when our efforts in overcoming the passions are intensified, very few days allow oil and wine, let alone fish. However, shellfish and other invertebrates which do not have recognizable blood are allowed.

Practices vary between traditions. I know of otherwise traditional Greeks who believe that fish eggs are allowed on every wine/oil day therefore taram salata is regular fare even during Lent. I also know of russians who strictly prohibit seafood/shellfish except on week-ends in Lent or on other oil/wine days. But then I also know of a pious and traditional russian bishop who says that since a Vigil could be served on any day, so too can fish be allowed by economy on any day outside Great Lent. YMMV.

in Christ,
pr Mark

[Aristokles]

Umm... I was just joking around.

Sorry for the confusion.

WHEW!
I'm new here and almost broke my fast with a brandy after reading that one.

Demetri

[Aristokles]

Thank you , priestmark Fr. G, that is very informative. I was unaware of most of what you reveal about fasting.
I am aware that the GOA enjoys a rather battered image of late, but I was raised there and not even fish was allowed in my family. And along with olive oil, ANY oil and olives themselves were excluded. Were both of my grandmothers too strict?

Demetri