Racial Pride/Tribalism and Orthodoxy. Are they compatable?

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

sigh posts like that take a long time to do, so I was waiting until I wasn't so busy as I have been...but now you've gone and insulted me again...

So put me up against the wall and shoot me. I was asking an honest question. You came in with your defense on being blamed for being a jew and then you state that you are Orthodox, but you go to jewish chatboards and call the Christians..."pet Christians". THAT is insulting to me.

I don't know if anybody else has noticed, but the saints did not support judaism. So what am I saying that is so wrong? Then I ask you about your conversion which is very good and very important and you have no time. Sounds like a blow off. It's a legitimate question.

From your first post here, you gave me the impression that you were here to stir up trouble and I guess you did a good job.

gphadraig wrote:

Your name sounds Jewish? Oh, dear, dear me. And this is a Christian forum. Maybe so, maybe so.

Yes it IS a CHRISTIAN forum. And what's wrong with the question? She sounded jewish in her initial comment and still seems to hold both traditions. A person is either jewish or not...there is no inbetween...no grey areas. Should I explain why or has the Nativity feast and Pascha been overlooked all together? Is everybody here so afraid to approach the issue? She sounded like she wanted to make an ISSUE of it.

If she came in with communist comments, I would question her just the same.

The mentality of some of this thinking is so constructed that even reality has to be re-spun in order to accomodate the vulgar prejudice.

I am not being prejudice, but cautious of who comes to the cafe.

Why don't I just go to synagogue then and everyone here who thinks I am so extreme will applaude me, right? What did Christ sacrifice Himself for then? Am I going to deny Him to satisfy this woman who feels "insulted"?

I'm glad to hear that Esther converted to the full truth. I would think that she would be more understanding about the major differences. Although she sounds like she is playing a game with us.

A person either leaves their old beliefs behind or they always have it lingering.

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Liudmilla
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Post by Liudmilla »

Forgive me Joasia....but you're sounding self righteous again....

sigh Then again perhaps the problem is that we don't hear your voice as you make your statements and comments and so must infer by the way we tend to read combinations of words. Anyway that's the way you "sound" to me...If I'm wrong, forgive me.

I have noticed that sometimes people make statements or say things that to them seem straight-forward or even common place ....yet these words can have a great effect on people. Some times positive, more often hurtful. I believe it is for this reason that we as Orthodox Christians are cautioned to watch our words so that we do not cause harm or distress to another.

Milla

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Post by gphadraig »

Even Hebrews have come to a knowledge of Christ, and become known as Confessors and Martyrs - latterly under the Soviet persecution of Christians.

As to asking questions or addressing difficult issues - which may upset, albeit that is not my goal or intention - I do; and have had it made very clear to me that I do on another forum.

What does concern me is this forum, as others, from time to time appears to attract bigots and cranks. Bad enough, but Orthodox traditionalists all too often draw critizism for being fanatics and fervently anti-jewish. The world already finds it difficult enough to hear the Good News, without us feeding their negative and erroneous fantasies. Which should we so do, surely means we are not doing that that we are charged to do...........?

I am not trying to express or infer in any way that you are a crank or a bigot, but the wording of posts may sometimes be open to unfortunate interpretations.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Luda

sigh Then again perhaps the problem is that we don't hear your voice as you make your statements and comments and so must infer by the way we tend to read combinations of words. Anyway that's the way you "sound" to me...If I'm wrong, forgive me.

I am sharp in my questioning, but I am truely sincere in my concern.

I have noticed that sometimes people make statements or say things that to them seem straight-forward or even common place ....yet these words can have a great effect on people. Some times positive, more often hurtful. I believe it is for this reason that we as Orthodox Christians are cautioned to watch our words so that we do not cause harm or distress to another.

Yes, that is true. I have been affected by people's comments, but nobody seemed to consider it important, just the same. But, I DO care about making it clear that I have no ill intentions with my questions.

gphadraig,

Even Hebrews have come to a knowledge of Christ, and become known as Confessors and Martyrs - latterly under the Soviet persecution of Christians.

Yes, I agree. It is wonderful to hear that. God and the Heavens rejoice when another soul is brought to the full truth...and everytime a person goes to Holy Communion.

As to asking questions or addressing difficult issues - which may upset, albeit that is not my goal or intention - I do; and have had it made very clear to me that I do on another forum.

Oh, I hope that wasn't me.

What does concern me is this forum, as others, from time to time appears to attract bigots and cranks. Bad enough, but Orthodox traditionalists all too often draw critizism for being fanatics and fervently anti-jewish. The world already finds it difficult enough to hear the Good News, without us feeding their negative and erroneous fantasies. Which should we so do, surely means we are not doing that that we are charged to do...........?

Does holding onto the traditions make us fanatics, or does our intentions? My intentions are not fanatical. And I will never agree with judaism. Does that make me anti-jewish?

The world finds difficulty in hearing the truth because it doesn't want to. The people don't want to hear it. The world's view will always distort the truth...it is it's nature. It is the opposite of spiritual truth and therefore creates this fantasy.

We cannot serve God and mammon.

I am not trying to express or infer in any way that you are a crank or a bigot, but the wording of posts may sometimes be open to unfortunate interpretations.

I will try to express myself better, next time.

I'd still like to hear Esther's experience. A convert's story is a blessing.
It's a story of hope.

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尼古拉前执事
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A good article on Orthodoxy and Racism

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Want to add a useful word to your vocabulary? The term phyletism from phili: race or tribe was coined at the Holy and Great pan-Orthodox pan-Orthodox Synod that met in Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) in 1872. The meeting was prompted by the creation of a separate bishopric by the Bulgarian community of Istanbul for parishes only open to Bulgarians. It was the first time in Church history that a separate diocese was established based on ethnic identity rather than principles of Orthodoxy and territory. Here is the Synod’s official condemnation of ecclesiastical racism, or “ethno-phyletism,” as well as its theological argumentation. It was issued on the 10th of August 1872.

We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which “support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.”

A section of the report drawn up by the special commission of the pan-Orthodox Synod of Constantinople in 1872 reviewed the general principles which guided the Synod in its condemnation.

The question of what basis racism that is discriminating on the basis of different racial origins and language and the claiming or exercising of exclusive rights by persons or groups of persons exclusively of one country or group can have in secular states lies beyond the scope of our inquiry. But in the Christian Church, which is a spiritual communion, predestined by its Leader and Founder to contain all nations in one brotherhood in Christ, racism is alien and quite unthinkable. Indeed, if it is taken to mean the formation of special racial churches, each accepting all the members of its particular race, excluding all aliens and governed exclusively by pastors of its own race, as its adherents demand, racism is unheard of and unprecedented.

All the Christian churches founded in the early years of the faith were local and contained the Christians of a specific town or a specific locality, without racial distinction. They were thus usually named after the town or the country, not after the ethnic origin of their people.

The Jerusalem Church consisted of Jews and proselytes from various nations. The Churches of Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus, Rome and all the others were composed of Jews but mainly of gentiles. Each of these churches formed within itself an integral and indivisible whole. Each recognized as its Apostles the Apostles of Christ, who were all Jews. Each had a bishop installed by these Apostles without any racial discrimination: this is evident in the account of the founding of the first Churches of God….

The same system of establishing churches by locality prevails even after the Apostolic period, in the provincial or diocesan churches which were marked out on the basis of the political organization then prevailing, or of other historical reasons. The congregation of the faithful of each of these churches consisted of Christians of every race and tongue….

Paradoxically, the Church of Greece, Russia, Serbia, Moldavia and so on, or less properly the Russian Church, Greek Church, etc., mean autocephalous or semi-independent churches within autonomous or semi-independent dominions, with fixed boundaries identical with those of the secular dominions, outside which they have no ecclesiastical jurisdiction. They were composed not on ethnic grounds, but because of a particular situation, and do not consist entirely of one race or tongue. The Orthodox Church has never known racially-based churches… to coexist within the same parish, town or country…

If we examine those canons on which the Church’s government is constructed, we find nowhere in them any trace of racism. … Similarly, the canons of the local churches, when considering the formation, union or division of ecclesiastical groupings, put forward political reasons or ecclesiastical needs, never racial claims…. From all this, it is quite clear that racism finds no recognition in the government and sacred legislation of the Church.

But the racial principle also undermines the sacred governmental system of the Church…

In a racially organized church, the church of the local diocese has no area proper to itself, but the ethnic jurisdictions of the supreme ecclesiastical authorities are extended or restricted depending on the ebb and flow of peoples constantly being moved or migrating in groups or individually… If the racial principal is followed, no diocesan or patriarchal church, no provincial or metropolitan church, no episcopal church, not even a simple parish, whether it be the church of a village, small town or a suburb, can exist with its own proper place or area, containing within it all those of one faith. Is not Christ thus divided, as He was once among the Corinthians, by those who say: “I am for Paul, I am for Apollo, I am for Cephas” (1 Cor. 1:12)? …

No Ecumenical Council would find it right or in the interests of Christianity as a whole to admit an ecclesiastical reform [whose membership was based on ethnic identity] to serve the ephemeral idiosyncrasies of human passions and base concerns, because, apart from overthrowing the legislative achievements of so many senior Ecumenical Councils, it implies other destructive results, both manifest and potential:

First of all, it introduces a Judaic exclusiveness, whereby the idea of the race is seen a sine qua non of a Christian, particularly in the hierarchical structure. Every non-Greek, for instance, will thus be legally excluded from what will be called the Greek Church and hierarchy, every non-Bulgarian from the Bulgarian Church, and so on. As a Jew, St. Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, could only have been a pastor in one nation, the Jewish. Similarly, Saints Cyril and Methodius, being of Greek origin, would not have been accepted among the Slavs. What a loss this would have entailed for the Church! …

Thus the sacred and divine are rendered entirely human, secular interest is placed above spiritual and religious concerns, with each of the racial churches looking after its own. The doctrine of faith in “one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” receives a mortal blow. If all this occurs, as indeed it has, racism is in open dispute and contradiction with the spirit and teaching of Christ.

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Post by gphadraig »

Surely the terms 'racist' and 'racism' have no place among us? The concept is one belonging to the secular world. Exclusive nationalism is contrary to the Christian message surely, and bigotry and hatred are sadly nothing new.

Otherwise I would like to thank Deacon Nikolai for a thoughtful post...

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Sabbas
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Post by Sabbas »

I wanted to say hello to everyone. I am new to Euphrosynoscafe and found myself very intrigued by this discussion. Now after reading all the posts and the article originally mentioned I would like to reply. Please forgive me if I say anything offensive to anyone as that is not at all my intention.

First the article linked seemed interesting and was not racist per se though I would assume that American Renaissance harbors a certain amount of racism. My first thought was what is this priest doing speaking at a an AR conference. Second does this have anything at all to do with where he got his licentiate? which is the CTOS which I hold in high regard. Fr.Thornton has written another article that might make you wonder about him even more
http://www.reformed-theology.org/southern/heritage.htm

All in all the article for AR states a lot that is true I particularly took this away

With respect to what I have just said, I must also add a caveat that the formulation of secular, procrustean ideologies based on race, especially those that deny the innate dignity of all men, or promote the unjust or inhumane treatment of persons on account of their race, would indeed run contrary to Christian teachings and would rightly be opposed by traditional Christians. . .
Father Koterski goes on to make another important point: "But this is not to say with the skeptics that that high culture is itself the goal and religion a more or less convenient means. . . . Rather, culture itself has a further purpose: to enable human beings progressively to discover the deepest truth about themselves as human, that their real fulfillment resides in reverence for the Transcendent God in whose image they are made." The aim of religion is not the creation of culture, but the culture it creates assists religion in achieving its ultimate goal.
Grotesque attempts have been made to obviate the need for a return to traditional Christianity by the substitution of secular ideologies. Such attempts have been catastrophic. In the last century Nietzsche postulated a coming new moral system that would replace Christianity – such systems were attempted in this century and brought about an even more dramatic erosion of the position of European man and his civilization, as well as the deaths of tens of millions of human beings in wars and revolutions. Apart from traditional Christianity, there is no alternative path, in my judgment, which will lead us to the successful revitalization of our civilization. For 2,000 years the soul of European man has been Christian. Remove that soul, and we now know that European civilization becomes sterile and soon dies. European civilization is Christian. If we recognize that, we begin the mighty endeavor that will lead us to renewal and renaissance.

What is wrong with that? I also think he uses the term race in the Kantian definition than the more contemporary definition. He also said nothing disparaging African people, I think he would defend the Kingdom of Ethiopia, but was rather making a point that traditional Christianity has historically gone hand in hand with hierarchical society. However I don't think that he is promoting phyletism rather just making a point about the decadence we live in.
Having said that I will say something very negative about the article. One thing that struck me is that Fr.Thornton mentions John Baker and his book Race which has long been used by racists to promote their ideology. Second the article is geered toward certain types of political thinking very reminiscent of the Aristocratic thinking the DNVP held in Weimar Germany. I mean it's not racist or Fascist but in a Democracy it often buddies up with racists and Fascists. This seems to be what Fr.Thornton is doing: buddying up with non-Orthodox who hold some very unOrthodox and anti-Christian views. But I could be, and hope I am, wrong.
Lastly I hope I am wrong about AR. Is it at all linked to the National Renaissance Party founded by James Madole? I haven't been able to find out in the past hour. However if it is I think Fr.Thornton should never of given that speech. James Madole was occultnik weirdo very active in Nationalist political circles of influence. He hated Jews like Hitler did; he thought of them as closer to insects than people literally. But he also was convinced Christianity was Jewish cult that kept the Aryan mind enslaved.

joasia I don't think you are an anti-semite but you did seem a little jumpy with Esther. Also, while many in the Communist party in Russia were of Jewish heritage I can't imagine any of them having been very religious. Also I am not so sure about the 95% figure. A cursory look at some higher ups Kruschev: Ukrainian Zukhov:Russian Lenin: Chuvash Yezhov:Russian Beria:Georgian Lazar Kaganovich:Russian and the list goes on. The only person who comes to mind immediately is Molotov's wife.

Also I would like to say that some of the things that went flying back and forth were interesting and historical and then some things really seemed to overgeneralize. I am from partial Ashkenaz heritage. I like Yiddish culture to an extent. My paternal grandfather was a German who fit the description of Aryan my paternal granmother was 100% Ashkenaz. On my mothers side there is a lot of Native American and German blood.
If anybody wants to know what it is like to be considered a mongrel by racists ask people like me. I look in the mirror every morning and see my almond eyes and slanted eyebrows and high cheekbones. I was an Atheist once and did not like Christians. Did I draw on Jewish literature to fuel this hatred? No I actually read literature about Central Asian religion and philosophy because that is where many Ashkenaz descend from and where they get many of their racial traits; Khazaria had a lot to do with that. The book The Thirteenth Tribe talks quite a bit about this.
Anyway I later started reading like Esther and became convinced that Christianity IS Orthodoxy and that this is where Truth IS. Do I still feel a connection to my heritage? Of course! Does it have anything to do with my being Orthodox? No.

Sorry for ranting a bit but I just wanted to let everyone know who I am and why this discussion and article piqued my interest.

Asking your prayers!

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