What to do about Islamic Expansion in US?

[brendan]

I can agree to disagree, but I can never accept brendan's opinion that distinctions between races are acceptable in the Church.

George, the issue at hand has nothing at all to do with that. You keep bringing irrelavent issues into the discussion while avoiding the main points. I asked you a simple question twice and each time you refused to address it. Obviously, nothing will be accomplished here, so I am walking away from this discussion.

George, I wish you well. We can agree to avoid certain topics in the future. Hopefully we can find common ground on other things.

[George Australia]

I asked you a simple question twice and each time you refused to address it.

You asked me twice whether 'white people' have the same 'rights' as 'non-white people'; I answered twice by saying this question is not up for discussion in the Orthodox Church and explained why.

[brendan]

I asked you a simple question twice and each time you refused to address it.

You asked me twice whether 'white people' have the same 'rights' as 'non-white people'; I answered twice by saying this question is not up for discussion in the Orthodox Church and explained why.

Continuing with that line of discussion is not accomplishing anything, so let me ask you a different question:

Would you be in favor of allowing Muslims to use your parish to hold Muslim religious services?

[George Australia]

Would you be in favor of allowing Muslims to use your parish to hold Muslim religious services?

I certainly wouldn't be in favour of it, but no blood should be shed to prevent it happening by force. If we are forced to, it should be surrendered peacefully. St. Kosmas Aitolos once said to the Ottomans:

"Take our homes and our fields, take our food and our cattle, take our Churches and monasteries, only leave us our souls and Christ- these two we need."

We are Christians, and we have no permanent home on Earth.

If you are a Christian, no earthly city is yours. Of our City 'the Builder and Maker is God.’ Though we may gain possession of the whole world, we are withal but strangers and sojourners in it all. We are enrolled in heaven: our citizenship is there! Let us not, after the manner of little children, despise things that are great, and admire those which are little! Not our city’s greatness, but virtue of soul is our ornament and defence. If you suppose dignity to belong to a city, think how many persons must partake in this dignity, who are whoremongers, effeminate, depraved and full of ten thousand evil things, and at last despise such honour! But that City above is not of this kind; for it is impossible that he can be a partaker of it, who has not exhibited every virtue.
Homily 17 on the Commissioners

Agia Sophia was taken by force and was used as a Mosque and more recently the same thing has happened to the Churches of Northern Cyprus. In Bosnia-Herzegovina the Churches are desecrated and destroyed by Albanian extremists. Should our response as Orthodox Christians be violence? That is not the response of the Church in Constantinople, the Church of Cyprus nor the Church in Serbia. They endure their Golgotha patiently. This is how a Christian responds.

Now you answer a question. Should anything prevent marriages between 'european-american' and 'african-american' Orthodox Christians?

[brendan]

Agia Sophia was taken by force and was used as a Mosque and more recently the same thing has happened to the Churches of Northern Cyprus. In Bosnia-Herzegovina the Churches are desecrated and destroyed by Albanian extremists. Should our response as Orthodox Christians be violence? That is not the response of the Church in Constantinople, the Church of Cyprus nor the Church in Serbia. They endure their Golgotha patiently. This is how a Christian responds.

All of Europe would have been made Muslim is they hadn't been stopped in Vienna - by force.

Now you answer a question. Should anything prevent marriages between 'european-american' and 'african-american' Orthodox Christians?

I've read some Orthodox opinion on this subject that holds that while the Church doesn't forbid such marriages, neither does it encourage them. Many clergy would council against such marriages for a number of practical reasons, if nothing else.

One argument made by a professor at an Orthodox seminary was that God created the races and these are apparently be part of his plan for salvation. Widespread interracial marriage would obviously destroy these races and upon this idea one could object to such a practice.

I believe interracial marriage was indirectly the reason God brought the flood in Noah's day. As you will recall, Genesis describes how the sons of God were marrying the daughters of men who in turn created the nephilim who caused violence to increase on the earth. Christ even made one reference to this in the NT when He talked about how people were "marrying and divorcing" "like in Noah's day." Did that mean interracially? I don't know. But we do know interracial marriage was happening in Noah's day. That's very clear from the context in Genesis:

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

[尼古拉前执事]

They were giants, not men of a different color. This is where we get Goliath, one of the kin of giants from the fallen angels and women. Totally different creatures.

I think reading in that one should only marry someone with the same skin tone is way off.

George, maybe I owe you a loaf of white bread after all. LOL!

[1, 1, 1, 1... 2, 2, 2, 2... 3, 3, 3, 3... 4, 4, 4, 4]

Pardon me, your epidermis is showing, sir
I couldn’t help but note your shade of melanin
I tip my hat to the colorful arrangement
Cause I see the beauty in the tones of our skin

We’ve gotta come together
And thank the maker of us all

(chorus)
We’re colored people, and we live in a tainted place
We’re colored people, and they call us the human race
We’ve got a history so full of mistakes
And we are colored people who depend on a holy grace

[1, 1, 1, 1... 2, 2, 2, 2... 3, 3, 3, 3... 4, 4, 4, 4]

A piece of canvas is only the beginning for
It takes on character with every loving stroke
This thing of beauty is the passion of an artist’s heart
By God’s design, we are a skin kaleidoscope

We’ve gotta come together,
Aren’t we all human after all?

(chorus)
We’re colored people, and we live in a tainted place
We’re colored people, and they call us the human race
We’ve got a history so full of mistakes
And we are colored people who depend on a holy grace

Ignorance has wronged some races
And vengeance is the Lord’s
If we aspire to share this space
Repentance is the cure

[1, 1, 1, 1... 2, 2, 2, 2... 3, 3, 3, 3... 4, 4, 4, 4]

Well, just a day in the shoes of a color blind man
Should make it easy for you to see
That these diverse tones do more than cover our bones
As a part of our anatomy

(chorus)
We’re colored people, and we live in a tainted place
We’re colored people, and they call us the human race
We’ve got a history so full of mistakes
And we are colored people who depend on a holy grace

We’re colored people, and they call us the human race
[oh, colored people]
We’re colored people, and we all gotta share this space
[yeah we’ve got to come together somehow]
We’re colored people, and we live in a tainted world
[red and yellow, black and white]
We’re colored people, every man, woman, boy, and girl
[colored people, colored people, colored people, colored people, yeah]

[George Australia]

George, maybe I owe you a loaf of white bread after all. LOL!

I knew should have kept it at a bottle of ouzo, Father Deacon!