What would you do if ROCOR and the MP united tomorrow?

[rebecca]

If only the OCA weren't so far buried in ecumenism and modernism...Orthodoxy in America would really be strengthened and flourish if EVERYONE were under one autocephalous church.[/i]

[rebecca]

If only the OCA weren't so far buried in ecumenism and modernism*...Orthodoxy in America would really be strengthened and flourish if EVERYONE were under one autocephalous church.[/i]

*according to traditionalist churches; it's not my place to judge

[mwoerl]

"its not my place to judge . . . "
this is an oft repeated phrase, and, one that, i believe, is misunderstood in many ways. i heard something once, i think it was something one of the optina elders said, speaking on "judging others." if someone tells you an obvious lie, it was remarked, if you then resort to labelling that person "a liar," you ARE judging that person. however, if you simply limit your remarks to the fact that, in this particular instance, this person did indeed "tell a lie," you ARE NOT "judging" the person, simply making known what had happened.

i have also been told that "judging" a person is wrong, because "only God can judge . . . " in this context, also, it is misundrstood. we can indeed say, "so-and-so had done something wrong," if that is indeed the case, and NOT be "judging" the person, as the observation of things that are right and wrong are not limited solely to God. However, if one were to say, "so-and-so has done sonething wrong, and therefore will burn in hell for eternity," then, indeed, God's perogative to judge where a soul spends eternity is being co-opted; this is the "judging others" that we are to avoid.

with the participation of the oca in so many ecumenical forums, events, etc., - such as their dialogues with monophysites (especially the armenian church), the catholic-orthodox bishops consultation or whatever it is called (which recently produced a rather lengthy and meaningless load of baloney concerning the 'filioque'), the writings of oca luminaries stressing minimal observances of orthodox practice, the penchant of many of the clergy in the oca for a modernist approach (are there ANY new oca churches being built that include an iconostas? i know an oca priest who visited the holy sepulchre-he told one of his parishioners upon his return that it had been so very wonderful to "walk in the footsteps of the lord," and then went on to observe that "it was terrible the way the place was junked up with icons and vigil lamps . . .") i do not consider the statement about the oca being "so far buried in ecumenism and modernism" to be some unwarranted and "wrong" judgment. it means, perhaps, that you have visited oca churches and are acquainted with some oca clergy . . . it is quite obvious that in its history the oca has been somewhat in the grasp of those who tend to want to "modernize" orthodoxy by doing away with many traditional practices, sometimes for the sake of "fitting in" in america, sometimes because "original" thought on the subject by luminaries of the oca has been taken as the pronouncements of some sort of "latter day holy fathers."

if no one was "allowed" to make such observations, the hierarchy of the mp could never have been criticized for its willing subjugation to the bolsheviks, nor could the ep ever have been criticized for adopting the new calendar!

michael woerl

[rebecca]

After my first statement, I began to think that I sounded judgmental, and I realized that I shouldn't make blanket statements about an entire church with my limited knowledge. So I thought I should emphasize that I'm going on the opinion of ROCOR (to which I belong), rather than jumping to my own conclusions.

[Gregory2]

mwoerl,

Just for a healthy dose of reality...
I grew up in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and for the last many years have worshipped in OCA/Antiochian parishes.... and I've never been to one (of any "jurisdiction") that hasn't had an iconostas! If you know of any new Orthodox parishes that intentionally left out the iconostas, I'd be very interested in finding out where they are, their website, etc. In my current OCA parish, we have a building program for a church (we've been worshipping in a converted "shed") -- and we definitely have no plans to do away with the iconostas. Where would you have heard this? Even our converted shed has an iconostas.

I'm not the biggest fan of modernism -- I really question the utility of "ecumenical dialogues," I think the Catholic-Orthodox dialogues that go on in this country are amazingly silly (there is only one way toward Catholic-Orthodox unity -- either Orthodox become Roman Catholic, or Roman Catholics become Orthodox), and I question the reasons for going with the New Calendar. But if you have allegations, back them up with reality. :ohvey:

[priestmark]

(we've been worshipping in a converted "shed") ... Even our converted shed has an iconostas.

As an aside, I am curious as to the dimensions of your "shed" and the "capacity" (number of parishioners in that space)

Personal space requirements vary widely (literally sometimes) from person to person, and small spaces can be a real challenge to some folks. I am always looking for data points in square feet per person for acceptable comfort levels. I was sensitized to this issue by a couple of very space-conscious people and in part I'm trying to figure out if they are on one edge of normal, or simply claustrophobic. Prior to meeting these people, my impression was that the Orthodox are in general very tolerant wrt personal space. I want to plan for the future with good data.

As if it were not obvious, we have a very small chapel. Subtracting for the "no-man's lands" too close to the iconostasis and up the middle and also subtracting the space occupied by stands and tables, the actual effective space per person with average attendance is about 10 sqft (consisting of of two or three much more closely spaced clumps of people). We have had people pretty much "crammed in" at 5 sqft/per, and while I personally find that acceptable (having been at the cathedral when 2 -3 sq ft was all you had) I am hoping to expand our building and up the capacity to a comfortable level (at least for non-phobics).

You data would be most interesting and useful to me. Thanks.

o.M

[Gregory2]

Father Mark,

I don't know any dimensions off-hand, but if I can direct you to our website (www.orthodoxtacoma.com), you can see the contact information for our parish - as well as photos of our building, and an e-mail to the webmaster or a phone call to our parish priest or deacon would be able to give you the data.

Thanks be to God, several Orthodox missions have arisen in our area over the past couple of years, so many folks who used to travel long distances to our parish now worship elsewhere, leaving more "personal space" for the rest of us. The number of people on our parish photo that you see on our website is less now, due to "losing people" to these missions. But it's really not a loss -- it's an amazing gain! I hope this is helpful.

In Christ,
Gregory