Fr. Steven Allen: ROCOR, Met. Agathangel & SiR

[Priest Siluan]

Can someone please clarify the issue of "Kyprianism" for me? I joined the ROCOR in 1997, and have been part of the ROCOR-A since May of 2007 (without having a parish in my geographic area since 2007.) What, precisely, is the "heresy" of "Kyprianism" that Father Steven Allen and others are referring to on this thread? Also, where, precisely, has the Orthodox Church declared this so-called "Kyprianism" of the ROCOR to be a heresy?

Please read this article by Bishop Gregory (Grabbe):

http://www.roacusa.org/Catechism/Dubiou ... yprian.pdf

[Priest Siluan]

Can someone please clarify the issue of "Kyprianism" for me? I joined the ROCOR in 1997, and have been part of the ROCOR-A since May of 2007 (without having a parish in my geographic area since 2007.) What, precisely, is the "heresy" of "Kyprianism" that Father Steven Allen and others are referring to on this thread? Also, where, precisely, has the Orthodox Church declared this so-called "Kyprianism" of the ROCOR to be a heresy?

Also, read this other one by V. Moss

http://www.roacusa.org/Catechism/CAN%20 ... AMENTS.pdf

[Pravoslavnik]

Thank you, Father Siluan, for posting these references on "Cyprianism" for me. It appears that Father Steven Allen's criticism of the old ROCOR (and, by extension, of the current ROCOR-A) is based upon the 1994 decision of the ROCOR Synod --led by ROCOR first hierarch Metropolitan Vitaly (Ustinov)--to enter into communion with the Old Calendarist Greek synod of Metropolitan Cyprian. Cyprian apparently opined that the issue of sacramental grace within modern ecumenist Orthodox Churches could only be ascertained by a legitimate Church council. I can certainly understand why the 1994 ROCOR decision to commune with Metropolitan Cyprian appears to conflict with the earlier ROCOR anathema of ecumenism promulgated by Metropolitan St. Philaret the New Confessor.

However, in this context, please allow me to post an excerpt from a 1929 epistle of the New Martyr Metropolitan Cyril of Kazan on a somewhat similar subject-- the issue of sacramental grace within the Sergianist churches of Soviet Russia:

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  [color=#FF0000] [i]I am not separating from anything holy, from anything that authentically belongs to the Church. I fear only to approach and cling to that which I recognize as sinful in its origin, and therefore I refrain from brotherly communion with Metropolitan Sergius and the Archpastors who are one in mind with him, since I have no other means of accusing a sinning brother. The many attempts known to me of personal written brotherly exhortations addressed to Metropolitan Sergius by the reposed Metropolitan Agathangelus, by Metroplitan tan Joseph and his two vicars, by Archbishop Seraphim of Uglich and Bishop Victor of Vyatka, have not been able to return Metropolitan Sergius to his proper place and to a fitting manner of action. To repeat this attempt of convincing by words would be useless. Therefore, I acknowledge it as a fulfillment of our archpastoral duty for those Archpastors and all who consider the establishment of the so-called "Temporary Patriarchal Synod" as wrong, to refrain from communion with Metropolitan Sergius and those Archpastors who are of one mind with him. [u]By thus refraining, for my part, I am not in the least affirming or suspecting any lack of grace in the sacred actions and Mysteries performed by Sergianists (may the Lord God preserve us all from such a thought!), but I only underline my unwillingness and refusal to participate in the sins of others.[/u][/i][/color]

   Is Metropolitan St. Cyril of Kazan's position on this issue of sacramental grace within potentially heretical jurisdictions not similar to that of Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili?  Do we really know with certainty that grace does NOT exist in so-called "ailing" factions of the Church-- the MP and/or New Calendarist Greek churches?  I ask this not as a rhetorical question, but as a question that I, myself, cannot adequately answer.

[Ekklisiastikos]

This (Met. Cyril's saying) is the only "serious" argument that Cyprianos invoked back in the 80's when he tried to justify his ecclesiology (i.e. schism) and get affiliated with ROCOR...!
That Met. Cyril is a new martyr, doesn't make all his sayings ipso facto correct!
We have some examples of other fathers who despite their sanctity they had problematic-inaccurate sayings and that is not because they kept insisting on their mistake after somebody tried to correct them, but because death forestalled them and didn't have enough time.

[Mark Templet]

Pravoslavnik
Let me boil it down for you as simply as I can. If the MP has Grace then it HAD such Grace all along. If it has Grace then it is the Church and you are sinning everyday that you are not under it, no matter the reason. On the other hand, if the MP was set up as a Soviet front organization subservient to the will of the Russian government (Sergianism) and repeatedly involves itself in ecumenists prayer with heretics, then it is NOT the Church and it won't suddenly become the Church... ever. Therefore, it has no Grace, and there is never any excuse to join with it, period.

Now our problem with ROCOR-A and Cyprianism is that it refuses to say the the above is the case. For some reason there seems to be some want of another council to condemn them? And to say what? Don't pray with heretics? Done that already. Don't change the calendar? Done that already. Don't submit the Church to the will of the Government? Done that already. The core problem with Cyprianism is that it is only a half-turn away from the World Orthodox. If their is Grace in the World Orthodox Church (MP, EP, etc.) whether they are sick or not, you turned your back on them and that is a sin. But, if they are engaged in heresy, making them heretics, then they have put themselves outside of the Church where there is no Grace of the Holy Spirit in any of their Holy Mysteries. I don't know how else to say it.

So, let me put the monkey on your back: Is their Grace in the World Orthodox Churches? YES OR NO!
If yes, then what is your justification for being separate from them?

[Pravoslavnik]

Frankly, I was not aware that Metropolitan Cyprian of Fili had ever referred to this 1929 epistle of Metropolitan Cyril of Kazan. But, please allow me to mention a different example from the Holy scriptures. To wit, the righteous Patriarch Joseph was thrown down a well by his brothers, and then sold into slavery in Egypt. Did the Lord, subsequently, deprive the Twelve Tribes of Israel (Jacob) of grace-- the descendants of the brothers of Joseph? Were not Moses, Aaron, the Most Holy Mother of God, and our Lord Jesus Christ all descendants of Levi, who had once thrown his half-brother Joseph down a well?

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 Is this act of treachery by Levi and the sons of Israel not somewhat analogous to the actions of the Sergianists and their associates in Soviet Russia toward the Church?  (It brings to mind, for example, the Bolsheviks literally throwing the Royal Martyr Elisabeth (Romanov) and the Nun Barbara down a well!)  So, can we know with certainty that God has not preserved some measure of grace within a remnant of the Soviet Church, as He did in the case of the sons of Israel?

   My answer to Father Mark's question, then, is neither "yes" or "no," but simply that [i]I do not know [/i]whether there is grace within the Sergianist and New Calendar churches.  Being uncertain, I have chosen to refrain from communion with them for the time being, as Metropolitan Cyril of Kazan advised in 1929.  Is this not, precisely the judgment of the ROCOR under Metropolitan Vitaly, of blessed memory, and of the ROCOR-A today?

[Mark Templet]

There you go: This is the exact underlying premise of World Orthodoxy's involvement in the WCC.
:shock:
I rest my case.