ARE ROCOR DISSENTERS "DONATISTS"?

[pjhatala]

Well, the Patriarch, on behalf of the Russian Church, did repent publicly for the sin of regicide (in which he and the Church really took no part), and has "officially" rejected Sergianism. I'm sure you've seen Fr. Roman Lukianov's article "The Path of the Russian Orthodox Church". http://www.pravoslavie.ru/enarticles/031216212711

Ecumenism and Sergianism have been rejected as official positions of the Russian Church- likewise, the New and Royal Martyrs have been glorified- a glorification with a number of obvious implications.

I suppose it boils down to whether one believes the repentance to be sincere along with the question of whether the sinfulness of individual hierarchs should (or CAN, according to Church teaching) be a barrier to eucharistic communion. I suppose it's here that the Donatist question comes in.

My 2 cents.

[Pravoslavnik]

The late Father Roman Lukianov, in the above reference, clearly believed that the Moscow Patriarchate had repented of Sergianism and ecumenism. I also found a similar opinion from a ROCOR priest at the "Orthodox England" site:

http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/triumph.htm

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    Is there clear evidence that the Moscow Patriarchate has [i]not [/i] truly repented of Sergianism and ecumenism?  If there is no clear evidence to the contrary, are we ROCOR dissenters guilty of "Donatism" for refusing to commune with the Moscow Patriarchate at this time?

[pjhatala]

In my opinion, I would say that the relatively few dissenters who left ROCOR after the May reunion have good intentions. Still, I trust the hierarchs of our church- men who have spent the better part of their lives in service to the Church...men who were formed in, and imbibed the spirit of the Church Abroad. I trust the delegates who went to Russia and met with high ranking Russian clergyman in order to better understand the present day Russian Church. I also trust my own experiences with the Church in Russia.

Personally, I find many things about the current Church/State relationship in Russia displeasing, to say the least. I think Putin's involvement with the merger is dubious. I think the current Russian administration often uses the Church in an attempt to bolster Russian nationalism and secure a new identity in the post-Soviet age.

Still, hierarchies have never been perfect, nor has the relationship between the Church and state in Imperial Russia or the Byzantine empire.

For me the union was not ideal or necessary...but I really can find no legitimate reason to depart from communion with the Church Abroad.

[Pravoslavnik]

A number of things during the past year led me to stop attending divine services at the ROCOR. I became quite convinced, perhaps erroneously, that the MP had never truly repented of Sergianism and had taken over the ROCOR with the intention of using it for Russian Federation espionage in Europe, America, and Australia. This notion had been publicized last year through the writings of the former KGB Col. Konstantin Preobrazhensky. Have I been experiencing a paranoid delusion of sorts, or is the MP (and FSB) now, in fact, using the ROCOR as an instrument of FSB espionage? And how are we to know the truth? For example, I have heard credible reports that the KGB has been active at Jordanville for many years.

[Helen]

is the MP (and FSB) now, in fact, using the ROCOR as an instrument of FSB espionage? And how are we to know the truth? For example, I have heard credible reports that the KGB has been active at Jordanville for many years.

Proavoslavnik, even if this is true, why should this be a reason to cut off from the MP-ROCOR? These types of situations have always happened throughout the Church's history. For example, Peter the Great abolished the office of the Patriarch and in his place instituted a goverment official through whom all Church decisions had to pass and nothing could be decided without his approval or disapproval.

Can we ever live in a pure Church? Yes we can. The Church is pure, even though it's representatives might not be.

[joasia]

Proavoslavnik, even if this is true, why should this be a reason to cut off from the MP-ROCOR?

Please excuse my intrusion. I just wanted to add something, if you don't mind. The MP have had an agenda for a long time. They were always connected to the Communist government and that seems like they are not living for Christ but for themselves. The first official Church was established on Pentecost with the Apostles. And the Apostles taught that compromise against Christ is not acceptable. All the lives of the saints/martyrs were examples of what is right by God.

These types of situations have always happened throughout the Church's history. For example, Peter the Great abolished the office of the Patriarch and in his place instituted a goverment official through whom all Church decisions had to pass and nothing could be decided without his approval or disapproval.

Wasn't Peter considered a nut by the Patriarchate? So if Alexeii II told you to jump off a bridge...would you do it? Or would you consider that this is not good advice?

Can we ever live in a pure Church? Yes we can. The Church is pure, even though it's representatives might not be.

It's not about the purity of the representatives...it's about them living the Truth. But, ecumenism is not acceptable. And that is the jist of the MP(besides the fact that they are a false Church). They are defying Christ because they want to be united with the other world relgions.

It's very simple. You either accept it or deny it.

[Helen]

Wasn't Peter considered a nut by the Patriarchate? So if Alexeii II told you to jump off a bridge...would you do it? Or would you consider that this is not good advice?

Quite possibly he was considered a nut by the Patriarchate. The point I was trying to make is that this situation is comparable to the situation of the Russian Orthodox Church under communist influence. Apart from the Old Believers no-one left the Church because of Peter's reforms. He also persecuted monastics quite heavily, as did Catherine the Great. Many monasteries were shut down during their reigns and many monastics exiled or killed. Peter also publically displayed his contempt of the Church with blasphemous parades. Yet no-one decided to make another Church except the Old Believers.