1054 Schism and Intercommunion

[Evfimy]

You know, the past couple of weeks I've been dealing with some traditional Orthodox who teach that heretics cannot be saved. Now they are telling me to read "River of Fire" by Kalomiros. But as far as I am concerned he was an extreme schismatic. Now I read this article by Philaret who said they can be saved. I am SO tired of the many contradictions and opinions in Orthodoxy. No one agrees on anything. They have no authority and they are tearing Orthodoxy apart by the seams. And they divide over the pettiest of issues. Christ said "a house divided against itself cannot stand." I thought I was leaving divisions when I left evangelicalism. Orthodoxy is just as bad in many ways.

All these things are pushing me away from Orthodoxy. They have no unity and the clergy think they are right on everything they say just because they are clergy. These people have no authority, and I'm tired of their arrogance.

[Jean-Serge]

OK... None is obliged to stay... But pay attention at the division between the catholics. Which catholic church will you join? The ones under Benedict XVI, the traditionnalist catholics separated from Benedict XVI(Saint Pius X fraternity and others), the palmarists or many ohers. You also have a large choice within the catholic... The modernist catholics under Rome that do not believe in Resurrection (according to a recent survey 10% of the Catholics in France believe in resurrection) and advocating for female priests, the traditionnalist catholics under Rome... and so on... There is much more disunity between the catholic church because de facto everybody is allowed to believe in what he wants even if it is in contradiction with the official doctrine as long as he says the supreme authority is the pope... The mess is less apparent but worse. I can tell you because I used to be catholic...

At least, traditionnal orthodox believe in the same dogmas but disagree with non doctrinal issues.

[Helen]

Evfimy, wasn't I right in saying that the 'True' church you are looking for is in your head?

Yes the disagreements in Orthodoxy are not good - but do you honestly believe you are going to find a church were this doesn't happen? The lives of saints often don't portray all the little nasty bits and pieces taking place in that time of history and also might not mention the not so nice things the saints themselves might have been a part of.

"Every man is a liar" Psalm 116.

"Trust ye not in princes, in the sons of men" Psalm 145.

Don't seek truth in people, seek truth in God. Orthodoxy is the fullness and carrier of God's Truth.

I hope you will understand what I am trying to say.

"Seek the Lord and your soul shall live" Psalm ?

[Papoutsis1]

Evfimy

Are you now starting to understand what I am talking about? The disunity and schisim you are experiencing is among the so-called TRUE Orthodox.

Just like the protestant schismatics they are schismatics as well. Always, and I mean ALWAYS, following a lone leader or bishop. I grew up with this, but always stayed canonical. If you do not stay canonical then you get what you are experiencing now.

Do you honestly think I wasn't were you are now? Come home sweethear, and experience an Orthodoxy you never experienced before. Let go of superstition and rumors and just come home.

I am hear for you an all I can stay is don't believe me, just keep going the way you are going and you will believe it for yourself. Always know that a true canonical Orthodox Church exists in every place you live. Seek one out, cleans your sould and come home. No questions will be asked, as none ever are. Just come home and find rest.

Time leads us always to the truth if we are truly looking for it.

May God Bless you

Peter

[Evfimy]

If I did become Catholic, I would be traditional. According to Catholicism, truth is alwayd found in the apostolic see in Rome. The pope is the head and final say on all matters pertaining to faith and morals. That's why Christ established that see, for the safeguarding and unity of the Church -- so they teach.

Popes and bishops can do wrong things. It's the office that is protected by divine establishment.

I agree with traditional Orthodoxy trying to preserve the faith, but I don't agree with some of their claims that other Orthodox are without grace.

But seriously, all these silly labels (GOC, TOC, ROAC-V, ROAC-G, ROCOR-V, ROCOR-L, OCA, HOCNA, etc). Do you really believe a group like this is the "holy Catholic and apostolic Church" commisioned by Christ to teach the nations?

These people divide over the pettiest reasons. And I'm tired of it. They can't agree on anything. They have too much pride.

Nobody seems to know where grace is and is not. They have NO authority. And they reject authority. That is why the are headed toward an inevitable fundamentalism.

ROCA used to tell me to avoid Moscow. What do they do? They turn around and join Moscow. This showed me they really have no idea what they are doing.

Some traditionalists commune new calendarists. Why? Either new calendarists are Orthodox or they aren't. You can't have it both ways. Orthodox are not allowed to commune non-Orthodox people. Why are they communing new calendarists then?

Whatever.

[Evfimy]

If the "ecumenist" jurisdictions are without grace, then why did not Elder Ephraim lose his clairvoyants when he joined the GOA?

Why would God allow one of the last elders to fall into apostasy?

Why has he had so much success in America?

Why is the miracle of the holy fire still occuring in the hands and church under the Jerusalem patrarchate?

Do you really believe the Theotokos would have allowed the majority of Athos to become apostate?

She said she would remain with them untill the end. What is she doing remaining with "apostate" monks?

These inconsistencies don't add up.

When I communed in a Serbian church, I felt the exact same power of grace as I always did with the pre-Moscow ROCA church.

I think it is the obsession with control, pride and megalomania that these people are tearing Orthodoxy apart.

Why should I be traditional? They're canonical one day, and defrocked the next.

Today one jurisdiction is united, tomorrow they are divided into two.

You ask two people the same question, you get two different answers.

There's like three competing ROCA groups going around right now.

Gregory of Colorady, since 1994, has been in like five jusrisdictions. And each one he says is the Church when he was in them. Did they stop being the Church just because he decided to leave them?

None of this makes sense at all.

[Evfimy]

COLORADO*