scwaterfowl wrote:Ya know, drewmeister,
the more I read your posts, the more I realise you are FOS; big time.
If you're not ROCOR or MP, not only do we not care what your opinions are, we d..n sure don't need your advice.
sc
Scatterfowl how do you feel about the Antiochian Patriarchate which you are in Communion with basically rejecting the 4 th Ecumenical council?
Theophan.
Juvenaly,
You want to call me out for my attitude???!!! Check back a thread or two and see what the Patriarch of Moscow is referred to by users of this forum.
You remind me a saying...
If an attorney has the law on his side, he argues the law; when he has the facts on his side, he argues fact; when he has neither, he raises his voice and beats his hand on the table.
Keep getting loud and beating your hands on the table...
GOC,
I'm not sure what you mean; ROCOR has always been in communion with all other Orthodox Churches. What?? Surprised???!! Yeah; its true. We have not always concelebrated, but we have ALWAYS been in communion with Antioch--there is a difference. So, whether or not Antioch--or any Orthodox Church--has a patriarch/bishop/priest that is "less than Orthodox" doesnt' really matter. The Church is the Church, and it is foolish to think that each and every layman, priest, bishop, metropolitan, patriarch, or any clergy must be 'pure' in order for the Church to be 'legitimate'.
On a related note; maybe the use of the word 'canonical' on this forum needs to be examined. It has nothing to do with legitimacy, but only refers to Church order.
This is not my opinion, or even my conviction; it is what the Fathers teach us.
sc
scwaterfowl wrote:GOC,
I'm not sure what you mean; ROCOR has always been in communion with all other Orthodox Churches. What?? Surprised???!! Yeah; its true. We have not always concelebrated, but we have ALWAYS been in communion with Antioch--there is a difference. So, whether or not Antioch--or any Orthodox Church--has a patriarch/bishop/priest that is "less than Orthodox" doesnt' really matter. The Church is the Church, and it is foolish to think that each and every layman, priest, bishop, metropolitan, patriarch, or any clergy must be 'pure' in order for the Church to be 'legitimate'.On a related note; maybe the use of the word 'canonical' on this forum needs to be examined. It has nothing to do with legitimacy, but only refers to Church order.
This is not my opinion, or even my conviction; it is what the Fathers teach us.
sc
Okay. The Monophysites are condemned by two Ecumenical councils. The false Patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch are in full Communion with them...and this isnt a big deal? Are you saying its okay to be in Communion with heretics after their condemnation by an Ecumenical council? Will you be hanging on in their after Moscow goes into Communion with Rome? Please think...
And they didnt consider themselves in Communion with ROCOR. Communion is usually a two way street isnt it?
Theophan.
In Europe the very traditional and deeply loyal monastery at Brookwood, England and the convent at Brondesbury left to join with the synod in resistance. (The convent was formed of nuns who fled Palestine and set up in London by Saint John of Shanghai). Neither can be described as given to fanaticism. Indeed the convent chaplains have at times been Bishop Kallistos before he was raised to the episcopate of the EP, and a now dead priest of the Serbian Patriarchate.
Lesna in France - again a convent with a noble history - has left and joined with the RTOC or 'Tikhonites'.
Bishops Daniel and Agafangel have formed a provisional supreme ecclestiastical authority and some 30 or so American clergy left and joined them, I hear.
So some clearly have agonised and done something. None of the messages or statements made by these are characterised by sarcasm, banter or other deeply unpleasant sentiments clearly incompatible with Christian belief or attitudes. These issues are not the province of some unedifying worldly political debate. An opinion that can only be expressed in such a manner surely carries little weight or significance save to point the finger at the originator or such remarks?
A wanderer, trying to discern truth from falsehood
Rather than trading un-Orthodox invectives with the South Carolina Waterfowl who has some apparent fondness for dog fights, and--what is somewhat similar--has long championed the activities of the KGB in Russian Orthodox Church affairs, I would simply like to ask about a few factual references.
Code: Select all
SCwaterfowl, have you ever read [i]Russia's Catacomb Saints[/i], by I.M. Andreyev? Have you ever studied the Mitrokhin archives in [i]The Sword and the Shield[/i]? Do you sincerely believe that it is canonical for an atheistic, communist state authority to appoint and manage hierarchs of an Orthodox Church? Do you believe that it is proper, canonically, for such a state to send its state-appointed Orthodox hierarchs to participate in international ecumenical organizations like the WCC for the primary purpose of suppressing information or criticism about the communist state's persecution of the Church?
Have you ever read any accounts of the spiritual life of the Moscow Patriarchate, and thosed who have been actively involved in this "Church" in recent years? Have you ever read any accounts of Patiarch Alexey's attempts to forcibly confiscate the ROCOR monastery in Hebron a few years ago? Does this strike you as the conduct of a true Orthodox hierarch? And one final question. Have you been taking your Thorazine lately, in order to prevent delusional thinking?
"Do not give what is holy unto dogs, lest they turn and rend you..."Pravoslavnik,
I have seen and heard what has been happening in Russia the past several years with the Church; it is growing and the spiritual renewal there is real. I really do not understand the opposition; it just does not make sense to me. I'm sure there are some MP clergy that are less than desirable, just as there are in ROCOR.
My Church, the Metropolitan, and our bishops made a decision; the correct decision, and I support it fully. Every ROCOR Church had the letter from Met. Laurus read (or they should have).
I have read 'Russia's Catacomb Saints', but not the other. If you suggest it, I will try and locate a copy at the monastery.
LOL about the Thorazine!! All I need is nicotine to prevent any delusions!!
Theophan,
How did we make the jump to Rome?? At least the Copts say the same creed as we do. Again, ROCOR has always been in communion with Antioch, but our clergy have not concelebrated. I may not like everything the Antiochians do, but they are still Orthodox. Maybe you are concerned that now they may become more traditional?? Communion/concelebration works both ways.
Juvenaly,
Apology accepted. 