Was Chalcedon really necessary?

[Anastasios]

I do not believe, based on reading Pope Shenouda's writings above and elsewhere, that he teaches monophysitism per se, but rather uses a confused terminology.

However, it is quite probable that he teaches monothelitism.

Anastasios

[GOCTheophan]

I do not believe, based on reading Pope Shenouda's writings above and elsewhere, that he teaches monophysitism per se, but rather uses a confused terminology.

However, it is quite probable that he teaches monothelitism.

Anastasios

THE ONE WILL AND THE ONE ACTHas the Lord Christ two wills and two actions, that is a Divinewill and a human will, as well as two actions, that is, a divineact and a human act? As we believe in the One Nature of theIncarnate Logos, as St. Cyril the Great called it, likewise:We believe in One Will and One Act:Naturally, as long as we consider that this Nature is One, theWill and the Act must also each be one.What the Divine nature Chooses is undoubtedly the same asthat chosen by the human Nature because there is not anycontradiction or conflict whatever between the will and theaction of both.The Lord Jesus Christ said: "My meat is to do the Will of Himthat sent Me to finish His work. " (John. 4:34). This provesthat His Will is the same as that of the Father. In this context,He said about Himself " the Son can do nothing of Himself, butwhat He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son alsodoes in like manner." (John. 5:19).He does not seek for Himself a will that is independent of thatof the Father. Consequently He Says "For I have come downfrom heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him whosent Me.” (John 6:38).

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46It is obvious that the Father and the Son in the HolyTrinity have One Will, for the Lord Jesus Christ said: "Iand My Father are One. " (John. 10:30).Hence, since He is one with Him in the Godhead, then He isessentially one with Him concerning the Will. Again, the Son,in His Incarnation on earth, was fulfilling the Will of theheavenly Father. Thus it must be that He Who united with themanhood had One Will.In fact, Sin is nothing but a conflict between man's will andGod's.But remember that our Lord Jesus Christ had no sin at all. Hechallenged the Jews saying: "Which of you convicts Me of Sin?." (John. 8:46). Therefore, His Will was that of the Father.The Saints who are perfect in their behaviour achievecomplete agreement between their will and the Will of God,so that their will becomes that of God, and the Will of Godbecomes their will.And St. Paul the Apostle said "But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor. 2:16). He did not say that our thoughts are in accordwith the mind of Christ, but that "we have the mind of Christ",and here the unity is stressed.If this is said about those with whom and in whom God works,then how much more the unity between the Son and His Ownmanhood would be in all that is related to the will, the mind andthe power to act! He, in Whom the Divine nature has unitedwith the human nature, a Hypostatic and Essential unionwithout separation-not for a second nor a twinkle of an eye.

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47If there was not unity between the Will of the Divine nature ofChrist and His human nature, this would have resulted ininternal conflict. Far be it from Him! How then could Christ beour guide and our example... to follow in His footsteps (1 John.2:6)?.The complete righteousness which marked the life of ourLord Jesus was due to His Divine as well as His Humanwill. The same is true of the salvation of mankind, the messagefor which Christ came and said: "For the Son of Man has cometo save that which was." (Matt. 18:11). This is the same Will ofthe Father who "He loved us and sent His Son to be thepropitiation for our sins. " (1 John. 4:10). Thus, thecrucifixion was the choice of the Divine as well as the humannature. Had it not been One Will, it would not have been saidthat Christ died by His Own Will for our sake.Since the Will is One, the Act is necessarily One.Here we do not distinguish between the two natures.

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48AGREED STATEMENT ONCHRISTOLOGY"We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, theIncarnate - Logos is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in HisHumanity. He made His humanity One with His Divinitywithout Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Confusion. His Divinitywas not separated from His Humanity even for a moment ortwinkling of an eye.At the same time, we anathematize the Doctrines of bothNestorius and Eutyches".Signatures.

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49CONTENTS*Introduction 1.The Orthodox concept regarding the Nature ofChrist2.Widely known Heresies concerning the Nature ofChrist3.The nature of this Union2 Union without mingling, confusion, alteration ortransmutation2 The example of the union between iron and fire2 The example of the union between the soul andthe body4.The Unity of Nature and the birth of Christ5.Possibility of such Unity6.The importance of the One Nature for propitiationand redemption7.The One nature and the suffering8.The term "Son of Man9.Evidence from the Bible10.The One Will and the One Act

Pope Shenouda II

[Pensees]

1. All the seven Ecumenical councils were led by the Holy Spirit, there is no disputing this in Orthodoxy, to dispute it is unOrthodox.

You believe that the decisions of an Ecumenical Council were inspired by the Holy Spirit precisely because a majority of those present agreed upon those decisions. What you've provided is a circular argument, rather than explaining how the traditional pre-Chalcedonian position is not Orthodox.

Oriental Orthodox Christians believe and always have believed that Christ is fully divine and fully human, true God and true man, in the "one incarnate nature of God the Word," as described by St. Cyril and accepted by your own fathers in the first Council of Ephesus. The correct term, therefore, is Miaphysite rather than "Monophysite."

Given that the Commandments forbid us to bear false witness, I would appreciate if the members of this forum discontinue referring to Oriental Orthodox Christians as "Monophysite" until they are able to prove that Monophysitism has been our actual position. To be Monophysite is to deny either the divinity or the humanity of Christ, but we believe and always have believed that Christ is true God and true man.

If you are honestly ignorant of what Oriental Orthodox Christians actually believe, I would recommend the following articles...

Beyond Dialogue: The Quest for Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Unity Today
Rev John H Erickson, Dean
http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/John-Erick ... ogue.html/

Monophysitism: Reconsidered
Fr. Matthias F. Wahba
St. Antonius Coptic Orthodox Church
http://www.coptic.net/articles/Monophys ... idered.txt

I guess you weren't paying attention in that class Matthew--because you are making a rather large assumption and you are also subtly changing the subject in that sentence, and you are relying on hearsay. So you are basically violating three rules of logic at once!

Argumentum ad populum is a common logical fallacy used to defend the Council of Chalcedon. Please do not attempt to avoid the central issues of this thread. It would be better to explain that, if you believe our Church is truly heretical, exactly how we are somehow guilty of heresy in simply defending the Cyrillian Christology.

Yes it was necessary and important enough for God to reveal His will through the miracle of the Great-martyr Euphemia which the Holy Church celebrates each year on July 11th.

What is the authenticity of this vision? How do we know that the origin was not demonic or purely of the mind? And how does that answer the question of whether the Cyrillian Christology is heretical or not?

I have purchased the Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined by V. C. Samuel, an Indian Orthodox priest, to better understand my church's position and the history surrounding Chalcedon. I will not post relating to this topic again until I have read most of this book.

Again, I must say that I have nothing against Eastern Orthodox Christians, and I am happy to be a member of this forum.

Peace.

[GOCTheophan]

1. All the seven Ecumenical councils were led by the Holy Spirit, there is no disputing this in Orthodoxy, to dispute it is unOrthodox.

You believe that the decisions of an Ecumenical Council were inspired by the Holy Spirit precisely because a majority of those present agreed upon those decisions. What you've provided is a circular argument, rather than explaining how the traditional pre-Chalcedonian position is not Orthodox.

Oriental Orthodox Christians believe and always have believed that Christ is fully divine and fully human, true God and true man. The correct term, therefore, is Miaphysite rather than Monophysite.

I guess you weren't paying attention in that class Matthew--because you are making a rather large assumption and you are also subtly changing the subject in that sentence, and you are relying on hearsay. So you are basically violating three rules of logic at once!

Argumentum ad populum is a common logical fallacy used to defend the Council of Chalcedon. Please do not attempt to avoid the central issues of this thread.

Yes it was necessary and important enough for God to reveal His will through the miracle of the Great-martyr Euphemia which the Holy Church celebrates each year on July 11th.

What is the authenticity of this vision? How do we know that the origin was not demonic or purely of the mind? And how does that answer the question of whether the Cyrillian Christology is heretical or not?

I have purchased the Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined by V. C. Samuel, an Indian Orthodox priest, to better understand my church's position and the history surrounding Chalcedon. I will not post relating to this topic again until I have read most of this book.

Peace.

Pensees firstly I do not believe that Monophysite theology is that of St Kyrill though I know of one Uniate priest who believes that St Kyril was indeed a heretic. I think some the saints writings can be read in a heretical or an Orthodox fashion- but the very fact that he is a saint of Holy Church shows which way we should indeed read it! If not through Ecumenical councils than how in your opinion is the infallibility of the Church expressed? Obviously you dont believe in a Pope...so how? The "World Council of Churches"?

I believe that Benjamin accepts the Council of Chalcedon because it has been accepted by the Mind of the Church. Ephesues II has been rejected by the same though I believe more people attended it.

Theophan.

[spiridon]

Ethiopian confession of faith today, as days of old;
The Confession and Prayer of Faith

The Following is the creed the apostles gave in Jerusalem as is written in the Ethiopic Liturgical Book in the original Geez (pg 40 and pg 63 in the English translation).

It is used in Divine Services, especially during the Anaphora of the Apostles.

We believe in one God, maker of all creation, Father of our Lord and Saviour Eyesus Kristos, because his nature is unsearchable.

As we have before declared, He is without beginning and without end, but He is ever living, and He has light which is never extinguished and He can never be approached.

He is not two or three, and no addition can be made to Him; but He is only one, living forever, because He is not hidden that He cannot be known, but we know Him perfectly through the law and the prophets that He is Almighty and has authority over all the creations.

One God, Father of our Saviour Eyesus Kristos, who was begotten before the Creation of the world, the only begotten Son, coequal with Him, Creator of all the Hosts, the principalities and the dominions.

Who in the last days was pleased to become man, and took flesh from Our Lady Mariam, the Holy Virgin, without the seed of man, and grew like men yet without sin or evil; neither was guile found in his mouth

Then he suffered, died in the flesh, rose from the dead on the third day ascended unto heaven to the Father who sent Him, sat down at the right hand of power, sent to us the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit who proceeded from the Father, and saved all the world, and who is coeternal with the Father and the Son.

We say further that all the creatures of God are good a there is nothing to be rejected, and the spirit, the life of the body is pure and holy in all.

And we say that marriage is pure and childbirth is undefiled, because God created Adam and Eve to multiply. We understand further that there is in our body a soul, which is immortal and does not perish with the body.

We repudiate all work of heretics and all schisms and transgressions of the law, because they are for us impure.

We also believe in the resurrection of the dead, the righteous and sinners; and in the Day of Judgment when everyone will be recompensed according to their deeds.

We also believe that Christ is not in the least degree inferior because of his Incarnation

But He is God, the word who truly became man and reconciled mankind to God being the High Priest of the Father. Henceforth, let us not be circumcised like the Jews. We know that He who had to fulfill the law and the prophets has already come.

[Pensees]

Ethiopian confession of faith today, as days of old;
The Confession and Prayer of Faith

Thank you for sharing. This should serve as another example of how Oriental Orthodox Christians are not, and never have been, "Monophysite."

If anyone has any questions, please PM me.

Peace.

[Anastasios]

Ethiopian confession of faith today, as days of old;
The Confession and Prayer of Faith

Thank you for sharing. This should serve as another example of how Oriental Orthodox Christians are not, and never have been, "Monophysite."

If anyone has any questions, please PM me.

Peace.

That doesn't prove a thing. Let's get out the writings of Severus and actually read them at length. Are they online anywhere?