Ok, last post. I'm not coming back to the thread cause if I do I'll be lured into posting again! I hope no one thinks I post this out of anger or frustration... because I'm not either of these. Perhaps a bit sad, but even this is balanced by my understanding that some were going to respond in such a way.
anastasios
You are acting like a fanatic
Is this a compliment? Like when the Gospel calls one of the apostles a zealot? (the gospel writer didn't mean that the apostle was a member of the sect known as the zealots, he was complimenting his zeal). If it is, I thank you for the compliment, though it will not persuade me to agree with you.
--but even people with ecclesiologies more extreme than yours (ie OOD) are more open to such a list than you!!
OOD wasn't the one originally in charge of making such a list, I was. Therefore, I've put a lot more thought into the pros and cons of such a list than fellows like OOD. I've had the time to think about such a list, while this is probably something he hasn't really had the time to think about... about how it would effect different people in different circumstances.
I would also like to say to OOD, at this point, that if I have anything to say to you, I say it on the forum in public, or in PM to you. I know not what you may have heard from certain individuals... certain individuals have certainly tried to subtley turn me against you. I ask you only to believe your eyes of spiritual perception, and not your ears of earthly worry, which sometimes listen to gossip since they think the source somewhat reliable. The source sometimes looks good, but is all rotten inside.
I can't figure you out sometimes.
Until fairly recently, the feeling was mutual. With all the recent posturing of yourself as a traditionalist sympathiser, however, along with some things you have said to me in PM (over at OC.net) things have become clearer for me. Though ironically, they might not be as clear for you. But I won't go "tell my brothers that my father is naked". I refuse to, even if I am the one who has to suffer (in reputation or in peace) because of it.
I just cannot figure out how in the world you can be against INFORMATION
That's really the mindset of the west, isn't it? Everyone provide their information, and everyone can believe and do as they desire. Well I'm afraid that the Church has not always been so open to "INFORMATION," as when they burned the books of heretics, or former pagans burned their own books. None of the Fathers said "ok, all the lay people, all the inquirers, everyone! read what everyone says and then come to a decision about what you personally believe". What's more, fathers such as St. Vincent of Lerins clearly said that those who did such "seeking" and eventually chose wrong were in for a farse worse judgment than those who only followed their fathers obediently (into error). And you wonder why I'm reacting strongly?
It has caused me no small pain, but I have distanced myself from certain groups. Not because I think all their churches are corrupted, but because they are going downhill and I am worried for the salvation of men, including me. And you say "well you don't have to pick antiochian churches if you don't want to". Who has clogged your eyes and blinded your eyes!? Do you think that inquirers are going to know that certain churches that teach certain things are dangerous to their faith? Most Orthodox aren't aware of all the dangers, yet you want to build this 8 lane super-highway and let little children (=those who know little of the faith) run out onto it... and you say "oh, well they have eyes, they can see when cars are coming". Poppycock! You have studied the issues to some extent and still don't have eyes to see the cars anastasios, how could you possibly expect children to? But I guess that's the point, isn't it? You don't see the cars, and so you start walking across the highway. You shout to others "Ignore that fanatic! I see no cars!" trying to invite the little children to follow you. Maybe the little children will get across safely. Maybe they won't.
especially when 1) anyone could find that information out themselves anyway,we just want to make it easier to find
Then it is on their head. This argument is only persuasive if the information being talked about is of a good nature. IMO it is not, so I see this as a very bad thing. I don't want them to have some of the information. It may confuse them and cost them dearly--in this life or in the next. They can indeed find it, but if they do, I certainly do not want to be responsible for leading them there. I don't want to be the one saying "this is good information, go to this church, it's close!" when in fact the information is bad.
--for instance, if you think Oriental Orthodox are heretics THEN DON'T SELECT THEIR LIST!!!
The fact that they might be on the list speaks volumes. Will you put ROCiE and all the small "fring" old calendarist groups on there as well? If not, why not? What is the criterion/criteria? If your answer that you believe the Oriental Orthodox have the same faith as the Orthodox? And this is the type of list you want traditionalists to support? One in which an inquirer might "try out" that OO church down the road? After all, the list has them on there. Or any other number of groups.
I mean really, what is the problem here??
Many people will fall into bad churches. I'm not willing to be responsible for them falling into them. You say you want to help: in some cases you may very well be helping them fall off a cliff. This doesn't seem to bother you? People may very well fall into wrong groups even today, without Bobby's list. However, why would we want to help such people fall into bad groups? You might say that it would be your intention to keep them out of bad groups, but if we disagree on what groups are bad, then how can a traditionalist trust you? There are already lots of resources for someone becoming Orthodox or finding an Orthodox Church, I don't see what this will add accept confusion and hurt. Oh, and maybe save someone the trouble of looking around or calling around for five minutes.
Ok, done with this thread... need to go say a canon of repentance (for allowing you to lure me into posting when I had at first decided not to post again). I have no animosity towards anyone here, and I can clear up things in PM if something I said came off wrong to them.