How Does One Explain Our Division to Inquirers?

[Justin Kissel]

What went wrong with the OCA, I think, was that they didn't allow an American Church to grow up naturally, but rather attempted to take a Church that was half filled with Greek Catholic converts, and half filled with Russians, to slap the label "autocephalous" on it, and then claim that it was now Americanizing. A few short decades later some already make the arrogant claim that one need not worry about forming an American Church, and that everyone should just join the OCA. I was hoping for something growing up a bit more naturally--from parish to parish--and when the opportunity presented itself it would become more independent. For instance, let's say that there are 5 parishes in ROCOR with such an "American" leaning (not because they are trying to "Americanize" ROCOR, but because that's just how these local Churches "grew up"); if ROCOR were to become part of a unified Russian Church again, perhaps these "American" Churches could become ROCOR's mission in America, only this time being American in culture, not Russian in culture and American only geographically. And perhaps other traditonalist groups could find their way into such a mission. Not a likely scenario, but it's one that comes to mind that illustrates what I'm thinking.

How many North American Orthodox Saints do we have? How many could we name? We really should know things like that better. How many of us have said an akathist to a N. American saint? Been to a service to one? Venerated the relics of one? I think that this is the first step in any process towards an American Church. We can't know where to go if we lose touch with where we've been.

[rebecca]

Actually, when I mentioned the "ethnic component", I was referring to liturgical language and jurisdictional divisions, not culture. (One thinks to himself, "I'm American, so should I join the Antiochians or the Russians or the OCA?) I can see a Catholic or Protestant walking past a church whose sign says "Bulgarian Orthodox Church" and he'll never get in the door, because he'll think, "Oh, that's just for the Bulgarians. I won't fit in." I'm not saying that all Orthodox churches in America should be "Americanized"; I'm simply stating the sentiments of some of the heterodox I know.

Rebecca

[rebecca]

And I'll add that the inquirers I know find the political divisions between jurisdictions (the jurisdictions being outwardly divided based on ethnicity) much more disturbing than differences in vestments or liturgical language.

[rebecca]

I'll reply to myself one more time :

I can see a Catholic or Protestant walking past a church whose sign says "Bulgarian Orthodox Church" and he'll never get in the door, because he'll think, "Oh, that's just for the Bulgarians."

A Bulgarian, however, will be more likely to join the church!

[Arsenios]

As it so happens I happen to be making a page on the internet that has links to information on about American Saints which all of you are welcome to visit at http://www.geocities.com/amricanarsenius/saintsna.html Also I think that this is a very interesting thread and it would be interesting to have a thread about it just as a subject by itself which I think I will start.

[bogoliubtsy]

Most of you are probably aware of this, but the OCA has a great section of their webpage devoted to most of the North American saints:

http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-a ... /index.htm

Also, as far as the Orthodox Church taking root in and transforming American culture so that the Church becomes a uniquely American phenomenon-
I think America, like no other land Orthodoxy has spread to, poses a whole new set of problems to spreading Orthodoxy and building up an American Orthodox Church. America, like no other place, is a mixture of cultures- hence the existence of every jurisdiction taking root here to serve its people. Does America really have a unique culture that can be baptised as the Greeks and Russians had? If so, I'd say many of the things uniquely "American" about are culture are things that aren't exactly baptisable, but things that need to be changed- greed, commercialism, our concepts of happiness, what we do for fun, etc. Our culture is permeated with things antithetical to Christian life. Can they be baptised, or must they simply be uprooted? When and if these harmful things are uprooted, what will our culture then consist of? What will be left to transform at that point that is uniquely American?
Our country, by its nature, is one of a variety of cultures- each, in many cases, retreating into its own faction of society. Many who come to this country consider it simply a temporary residence. Many return to their native countries or fly flags reminding them of their parent's country. America seems like a tourist destination sometimes or a place to prosper materially then get out rich.

When some of the American minded Orthodox talk about an Orthodox Church that is local in character, what does that mean? If a section of America is Russian, wouldn't being true to having a "local" Church mean having a church there that uses Slavonic and Russian? The same holds for Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians, etc. American culture is far from being a monolithic one that binds us all together. Historically, we are a rare exception and I don't think we can expect the Church to form here the way it has in other places. I don't think we can expect a uniform language(English) to be the best option for the whole nation at all times.

Just rambling....

Edit- Oopps...Arsenius already has that link on his webpage.
Amazing job by the way! Thanks

[Natasha]

I agree Peter. I tend personalize the matter too much and cannot discuss it so rationally.