ROCOR IV All-Diaspora Council news updates

Chrysostomos · Post by **Chrysostomos** » Thu 11 May 2006 10:08 am

Fr. Deacon Nicholas,

I guess I need to "bump" this to get a response.

Your fellow struggler in Christ,

Rd. Chrysostomos

ioannis · Post by **ioannis** » Thu 11 May 2006 10:50 am

Fr. Nicholas,

I think he is referring to the schism (divide) between the ROCOR-L and the MP.

"Schism can be overcome only with humble prayer, repentance and brotherly love toward all those who fell in the difficult time of persecutions and those currently gone astray... the revival of faith... must begin with our own spiritual renewal, through repentance and the cleansing of ourselves from sinful uncleanness and from self-justification. 'The pure in heart will see God,' i.e. to be cognizant of God and to live in Him, it is essential to purify your thoughts, feelings, and very life."

Chrysostomos,

Of course these seem like beautiful words, but I would point out that "humble prayer, repentance and brotherly love", while good, cannot bring back "those currently gone astray". Christ does not interfere with peoples free will. If people choose to go astray, they will remain so.

Therefore, this quote seems like an appeal for everyone to surrender to a sinful passionate "love", a love that not only loves the sinner, but the sin too. Orthodox Christians do not belong to "councils of churches" whose stated goal is to unite heretics as equals among equals, and they do not worship with heretics, and they certainly do not commune with them. And Orthodox Patriarchates are not created out of thin air by God-hating atheists, not matter how "Orthodox" the KGB looks.

It is also very sadistic how he juxtaposes "sinful uncleanness" with "self-justification". The ROCOR was and is JUSTIFIED in HOLINESS. The only thing that continues in "sinful uncleanness" is the MP along with all of their counterparts.

So in light of the context this statement was made, this quote is far from good praxis. Out of context, it almost has no meaning; like me saying, "that sure looks good in blue!"

Chrysostomos · Post by **Chrysostomos** » Thu 11 May 2006 2:51 pm

this quote is far from good praxis

ioannis,

I honestly beg to differ with you on this one.

I guess, if it came from the lips from one of the Bishops of the "accepted" traditional Churches, say, Metropolitan Valentine, or your own Metropolitan, it would therefore have been acceptable, and merited as "good" praxis.

I looked at the reference of schism as more of a statement of how one can avoid it if one lives a life in which they pray humbly, are repentant, and show love towards all - as our Lord Jesus Christ instructs us.

That what we as Orthodox Christians need to do, is first and foremost, focus on our own spiritual renewal, through repentance and cleansing of ourselves from sinful uncleaness and self-justification. Of course, my focus and belief, via the Church Father's, is that this is done through purification, illumination, theosis.

It is true, the pure in heart shall see God, this I do believe. Through the manifestation of Christ in our lives to others, by doing acts that glorify God and God alone. Our Lord said, when you do it unto the least of these, you've done it unto me.

Of course these seem like beautiful words, but I would point out that "humble prayer, repentance and brotherly love", while good, cannot bring back "those currently gone astray". Christ does not interfere with peoples free will. If people choose to go astray, they will remain so.

Quite true, it's a life of action, A life in which we manifest Christ in our day to day living that will have the greatest effect on those around us, and in our community.

I like the saying: "It's what you do, that defines you".

You and I can go around and discuss the canons, we can have vast knowledge about the Church Fathers, we can quote the lives of saints, we can point out very accurately the faults of others and perhaps rightly so. Yet, for me, I have come to find that it's what I do via action of my Lord's commands that will bear fruit. The fruit of the Spirit as St. Paul mentions.

Therefore, this quote seems like an appeal for everyone to surrender to a sinful passionate "love", a love that not only loves the sinner, but the sin too.

No, it's a call to surrender to Christ, and to cast away from us our sinful passions. It calls us to love the sinner, because we love ourselves, as we too are sinners.

Please feel free to highlight the statement of where it says anywhere in the quote that we are to love the sin too. I look forward to your highlight of that.

Your fellow struggler in Christ,

Rd. Chrysostomos

GOCPriestMark · Post by **GOCPriestMark** » Thu 11 May 2006 5:07 pm

Perhaps part of this discussion can be cleared up by realizing that the quote is from a statement of the ROCOR bishops of 1991. Met. Laurus is simply using it.

ioannis · Post by **ioannis** » Thu 11 May 2006 8:46 pm

Fr. Mark,

I was not aware of that. I wonder what context it was used originally.

You and I can go around and discuss the canons, we can have vast knowledge about the Church Fathers, we can quote the lives of saints, we can point out very accurately the faults of others and perhaps rightly so. Yet, for me, I have come to find that it's what I do via action of my Lord's commands that will bear fruit. The fruit of the Spirit as St. Paul mentions.

Chysostomos,

I have come to find that it is both. You can try to follow the Lord's commandents, and even be a martyr, but as the fathers say, not even the blood of martrydom will wash away the sin of schism or heresy.

Therefore, we need both the life and the truth. There is no life in Christ except in His Church, and there is no Church but the one that lives in Truth - the salt of the world.

Chrysostomos · Post by **Chrysostomos** » Thu 11 May 2006 9:07 pm

ioannis,

Thank you for your response.

I still would like a response to my question of where the Metropolitan's statement said anything in regards to loving the sin. You made a statement that I would really appreciate you addressing.

I have come to find that it is both

As have I. Agreed!

but as the fathers say, not even the blood of martrydom will wash away the sin of schism or heresy.

Could you please share with me which of the Church Fathers that made the above statement.

Therefore, we need both the life and the truth. There is no life in Christ except in His Church, and there is no Church but the one that lives in Truth - the salt of the world.

Once again, agreed. By God's grace you and I will both continue to strive to do so.

Your fellow struggler in Christ,

Rd. Chrysostomos

ioannis · Post by **ioannis** » Thu 11 May 2006 9:21 pm

Chrysostomos,

Your original qoute said, "...Schism can be overcome only with humble prayer, repentance and brotherly love toward all those who fell in the difficult time of persecutions and those currently gone astray..."

It says, the schism can be overcome by loving all those went astray without regard to the renunciation of the heresies the MP has been engaged in. In other words, love them and everything they are and then we can accept what they do - at least thats what read between the lines.