Timeline of the Church of Genuine Orthodox Christians

bogoliubtsy · Post by **bogoliubtsy** » Fri 2 May 2003 3:12 pm

OrthodoxyorDeath,
If you don't mind my asking, what jurisdiction is your parish under?

Thanks

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Fri 2 May 2003 3:48 pm

Paradosis,

I think it is a self-evident NESESSITY not to hold communion with heretics, whether they be heretical bishops such as Bartholomew or Ignatios, or Monophysites. I think we can both agree with at least that.

As for the question of Grace, if it is accepted that the ecumenists are heretics, it is no longer permissible to say that their priesthood and mysteries are the priesthood and mysteries of the One, True Church. So what of their ordinations? What of their Chrism? How can a it be anything but empty acts?

Also true is the clear patrisitic teaching that those in communion with heresy are also without Grace. So even though someone may have an Orthodox faith, their communion with heretics, such as the Monophysites, renders them without "sacramental" Grace. The Church calls on the heretics to repent, and on those only in communion with them to

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Fri 2 May 2003 4:00 pm

Peter J. Hatala,

We are the grand historic stem of the Church of Greece - under Metropolitan Chrysostomos II of Athens and all Greece.

Justin Kissel · Post by **Justin Kissel** » Fri 2 May 2003 4:17 pm

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Christ is risen!

I will try to respond more exhaustively later, but let me explain what I'm "getting" from your posts:

1) Ignatius, Bartholomew, et al. are heretics

2) Therefore, Met. Philip is in communion with heretics (and has a heretic as his Patriarch) and so the Antiochians in America do not have valid sacraments

3) Therefore, anyone, like me, who was baptized outside of Orthodoxy, and christmated by the Antiochians, are certainly not Orthodox

4) Even though I was accepted into ROCOR via a general confession (no renunciation of any antiochian practices/beliefs) and communion, I am still not Orthodox.

This seems to lead to the conclusion:

5) Since ROCOR admits me to communion (and I have a ROCOR spiritual Father), ROCOR is obviously not Orthodox (as they admit non-Orthodox to the sacraments)

Or am I Orthodox after all being in ROCOR? And if so, at what point did I become Orthodox? Certainly not my Roman Catholic baptism as that had no validity/grace. But was it when I was chrismated by an Antiochian Priest (who, believe it or not, was soon after laicized)? Was it when I gave a general confession at a ROCOR parish?

I was also married in the Antiochian Church. Am I really married?

How can you say that communion with heretics = not Orthodox, and then say that you aren't sure about ROCOR? After all, even if we aren't in "communion," ROCOR certainly accepts their sacraments on some level. It doesn't claim to "fill in what was not there" regarding their sacraments, but accepts them as valid.

Forgive me if I'm not getting what you're saying! I am trying to understand your position here

Justin

bogoliubtsy · Post by **bogoliubtsy** » Fri 2 May 2003 4:28 pm

And who, besides yourselves, do you share communion with? Who, besides yourselves are you sure of having Grace?
Who, besides yourselves, are "genuine" Orthodox Christians, truly upholding Orthodox doctrine.
The branch theory is disregarded by most, if not all Patriarchs and Metropolitans as being a falsehood. Breach of canons, questionable behavior, etc. does NOT bring one into heresy. The canons are breached constantly by the fact that there is over one bishop in many cities worldwide. Or the fact that many of us have visited Jewish doctors. Or that fact that we have bought Nativity gifts to give to people from non-Christians. Breach of canons does not take away Grace. When the heresy of Arianism was rampant, and the majority of the world's Patriarchs accepted this false teaching, was Grace deprived from their churches for their incorrect belief? Were there schismatic jurisdiction being formed every other day because of it?
The taking away of Grace from the sacraments of an Orthodox body takes much more than a slightly incorrect ecclesiology, which is just being DISCUSSED at this time. False-ecumenism is indeed harmful. But who is practicing this in the major U.S. jurisdictions or in Europe? Who is proclaiming that we are all branches of the same Church? Who is saying that the visible unity of the Church is not yet here on Earth? Who is speaking these heresies? No one.
Yes, much of world Orthodoxy is treading a shaky path at times. This however, does not deprive them of Grace and it is only yourselves, the Matthewites ROCIE AND ROAC that declare this to be so. And even amongst yourselves, you declare the other to be graceless and false. You, and your couple hundred of friends are The Holy Orthodox Church in your estimation.
"Not even the blood of martyrdom heals schism"

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Fri 2 May 2003 10:50 pm

Justin,

I appreciate your situation a little better from your last post and will try to size this up as adequately as I can.

First, the subject of the proper reception of converts is very deep and covers much more than I now care to get into. But suffice it to say that there is a difference between the Church receiving converts incorrectly, which has been happening for centuries, and a graceless institution receiving a

Logos · Post by **Logos** » Fri 2 May 2003 11:36 pm

My question is then who will be saved at the day of judgement? By reading some of the posts on this thread it seems that only a select few will be from ROCA and GOC. How does a man find his path to salvation? I find this whole conversation to be downright despairing? Why repent when you will end up in hell anyway for joining a graceless church?