Question about vestments

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Tue 14 October 2003 9:03 am

Julianna,

No Greeks do, even in Alexandria where their were no Turks.

Daniel,

It sounds suspect to me. The OCA wording makes it sound as though Greeks do not wear a phelonion, they do, it just doesn't have the high back. The OCA also makes it sound as though Russian bishops don't have miters, crowns, ect. - all of which pre-date the Turkish invasions. ?? I'm probably just not reading it right.

In the icons, I have read that the front was cut away because it was difficult for the priest to lift up his arms. I would imagine the second variations was also a solution, but I really have no idea. I never even thought of it.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Tue 14 October 2003 10:45 am

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:
In the icons, I have read that the front was cut away because it was difficult for the priest to lift up his arms. I would imagine the second variations was also a solution, but I really have no idea. I never even thought of it.

I have heard that as well, about the Phelon. I've jsut always been some what curious about it. How long did take to get from the older ones to news ones? How different cultures adapted it, it seems the west has is cut up the side, Greeks, and Russians cut away the front etc.

尼古拉前执事 · Thu 27 April 2006 12:42 am

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:
I don't have your answer Daniel, but I would like to comment that there are some very ancient vestments (1300's) at the "Byzantine" Museum in Athens. If not for their deterioration, you would not be able to tell any difference with what is worn today by the Greeks - unless you examined the fabric. Therefore, I would guess the high back is a Russian addition.

I have some pictures, although most of my electronic copies got wiped out with a computer crash a few years ago.

Since I looked for the picture, I uploaded a few of my surviving ones...

http://ecclesiagoc.org/1.jpg
This is a picture of my second cousin in his small church in the mountain where he is a priest. The town is Ayios Sophia (pop 125), where my paternal grandfather is from, and it seems everyone has my last name.

http://ecclesiagoc.org/2.jpg
The trip up to the vineyard with my cousin. The picture doesn't show it, but three feet off the road is a 200ft. fall. And he drives 50 mi/hr!

http://ecclesiagoc.org/3.jpg
The outside of his church

http://ecclesiagoc.org/4.jpg
The grave of my great-great grandfather, which was updated when my great grandmother was buried on top.

I have a few more electonic pictures but I didn't want to totally take your question of topic, sorry.

The links are not working now.

The Apostate · Post by **The Apostate** » Mon 1 May 2006 10:08 am

Most of the answers to your question, Daniel, have been about ERite vestments. For the development of WRite vestments and episcopal insignia, you can do far worse than Liturgical Vesture by Cyril Pocknee, (the same chap who did the re-write of The Parson's Handbook).

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Fri 30 June 2006 2:38 pm

I have read in a few sources that Orthodox liturgical vestments evolved from Roman formal secular dress. Eusebius of Cappadocia (who also wrote the famous Ecclesiastical History) writes in his Life of Constantine that liturgical vestments were adapted from Mithraic liturgical vestments.
Even if this is true, it should come as no shock that the Church used certain symbols and ornamentation that already existed in the ancient world in order to "be all things to all peoples, to teach them the Gospel," as St. Paul says. The only people who seem to have problems with this sort of thing are the Protestant-minded. Fr. Alexander Schmemann said that the Scriptures teach us that "Christ makes all things new," but what Protestants hear when they read this passage is that "Christ makes all new things."

尼古拉前执事 · Tue 5 December 2006 9:55 am

Dear Daniel,

I have heard that Russian phelons ended up having the familliar highback to stop the cold winds as often the cold Russian winter winds would blow in when someone entered the Church and the highback not only helped keep him warm but also helped block the winds from blowing out the candles in the altar since the priest is often standing in front or just inside the royal doors.

Priest Siluan · Post by **Priest Siluan** » Tue 5 December 2006 6:31 pm

Deacon Nikolai wrote:
Dear Daniel,

I have heard that Russian phelons ended up having the familliar highback to stop the cold winds as often the cold Russian winter winds would blow in when someone entered the Church and the highback not only helped keep him warm but also helped block the winds from blowing out the candles in the altar since the priest is often standing in front or just inside the royal doors.

And Also it gives a certain "mystery" for people when they look the backs of the priest.