Paul VI, Vatican II, and Apostasy

[Cyprian]

In no way I agree with this defense of Cyprian. He has no suspicion about the so called Roman sect. Now all elements from the time before the schism of 1054 are now destroyed. All these "leaders" - the expression of Cyprian- are not only heretics but also apostates from a l l C h r i s t i a n Faith and destroyers of all positive values. These false popes as especially John XXIII, John Paul I, John Paul II (Woytila), Benedict XVI (Ratzinger) and also Francis (Bergoglio). Again no defense of such pitiful destroyers !

Archimandrite Nilos,

Either I have completely misunderstood you, or perhaps you have completely misunderstood me. Or are you referring to a different Cyprian? I don't see any other Cyprian mentioned or involved with this thread. If you were referring to me, whatever gave you the slightest notion that I have no suspicion of the "Roman sect" and was attempting to defend them? I can understand if English is not your first language, and perhaps you misconstrued something that I have said. I fully agree with you that these false popes are "heretics and apostates, and destroyers of all positive Christian values." Please cite specifically where I said or implied otherwise?

[Barbara]

Interesting, Cyprian. You are getting me more convinced of your approach ! Very smart of you to figure this all out.
We are so fortunate to have you on this Forum. Thanks for all your patient input !!!
I agree with your well reasoned idea about installing front men instead of having to wrestle with recalcitrant figures who won't go along with the evil programme.

Maria, why do you say Pope Pius XII had "false piety". Where did this idea originate ? I have studied his papacy, though not much of his life before his time as Papal Nuncio to Germany.
One thing I did not care for at all was that he was a devoted protege of Pius XI, who was no good. [My opinion].
Yet Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli was a brilliant diplomat and a sincere conservative. What I see wrong only could be that the College of Cardinals complained that he did not consult with them and was too "Imperial". That doesn't bother me, because probably the Cardinals of that era lacked much imagination and talent. This is the impression one gets, though it could be wrong.
Cardinal Spellman of New York, appoined by Pius XII, was a fabulous fundraiser for the Vatican and for the American Catholic Church.
But to raise his millions, he had to hobnob with many questionable characters. Whether Spellman was pious himself, one does not want to speculate. He did dramatically turn around Rome's empty exchequer. He delivered on the financial spectrum !
Many were jealous of this fairly close friend of Pius XII's.
Thus it may be a lot of grumbling from angry and envious Cardinals left out in the cold which caused negative stories to be circulated about Pius XII. These accounts may have come down to us.
He did open up a way for the conference which became the infamous Vatican II. [But did he intend anything like the way it went ? Not likely]. Pius XII was occasionally childish and demanding.

Otherwise it seems he was one of the best Popes in a long time. Just reclusive, like a hermit in the Vatican, preferring to have his own spiritual life rather than deal with the Cardinals and prelates on business. How does that make him faking piety ?!

[Maria]

Maria, why do you say Pope Pius XII had "false piety". Where did this idea originate ? I have studied his papacy, though not much of his life before his time as Papal Nuncio to Germany.

Re: Papal Zucchetto

I remember Pius XII as a wee child. Perhaps most of all because Pius XII had perhaps thousands of his papal white skullcaps (zucchetto) made so that he could give them out as relics before he was even canonized. Oh, I wanted one.

We had to wear a skullcap or "beanie" as part of our parochial school uniforms when I was in grade school. The primary and elementary grades would wear the beanies, while the 7th and 8th graders would wear a black mantilla whenever we attended church services.

Yes, Pius XII anticipated that one day he would be beatified and then canonized. He would put one zucchetto on his head briefly, then gift it to certain people, who would cherish it. Then he would quickly put another on his head, and hand it over to his secretary to gift it to another person. The process looked like he was shooing flies, and was not at all devout and proper.

Forgive me for being somewhat jovial, here, but for some reason, I keep thinking of a zucchini squash. Perhaps I am hungry. I suppose if one were to remove the bottom of a white gourd and then carefully remove the squash and seeds from that section, and let it dry properly, that this gourd portion would make a great papal zucchini zucchetto.

Did you ever hear of an Orthodox Christian bishop or patriarch acting so pious as to gift future relics?

Not too many people realize that Pius XII not only allowed liturgical changes, which allowed the Germans to use the vernacular when saying their liturgy and ultimately led to liturgical abuse, but also started plans to hold the future Vatican II. Pius XII's Encyclical, MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI, set up diocesan liturgical commissions so that each diocese could propose meaningful changes in the liturgy. Even though Mystici Corporis was written June 29,1943, years before I was born, it already chastised people for liturgical abuses, and note, these liturgical abuses were occurring during World War II, and perhaps even before WWII.

Pius XII's successor, John XXIII, convoked Vatican II in 1962; and the Pontifical Commission for the Revision of the Code was appointed in 1963. Remember that it was Pius XII who led the project to revise the sacred canons when he was a canon lawyer. These revisions were published in 1917, which probably triggered World War I because the heads of states could no longer appoint their favorite candidates to be bishops. Instead the selection of bishops was now delegated to the Supreme Pontiff.