How do you define a true Orthodox Church?

[NadirGP]

In continuation to my last reply to Joasia…

One of my questions was:

Another question and last is as follows: Anybody, who is in search for a true Orthodox Church anywhere in the world, where he/she should look and what is the right question to ask, in order to avoid making a false path?

Joasia’s response was as follow:

Find out what jurisdiction they're with. Once you get familiar with who is who then you will know. You can find that information on the internet. And of course, you can get all that information here.

That is a simplistic and cut-and-dry response. Do you think that everybody in search for the true church is a computer literate? What about people in the third world countries; do you think they have access to this type of technology? You think in terms which reflect your American culture. Those people in the third world countries would not have a clue to what you are talking about.

Therefore, my question still stands. Can somebody come up with a better reply.

I reiterate it, not finding the right church anywhere in the world, is like not being able to find the right food for yourself and your family and so starving to death because of that.

Now, I come to crux of the matter – Sacraments & grace.

We know well why we have a Church: It is in order that her faithful be fed with the Divine Bread & Wine, which are the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hence, we may receive the grace of God and so be fortified during our existence in this earthly life.

However, how do I know I am receiving divine grace through the Sacraments if the church that I am in is without grace in the first place?

That is the dilemma many Catholic people are having today.
I do not believe that the official Catholic Church [Novus Ordo] still retains valid sacraments today. That is why I stopped attending. Therefore, the point is that only a true Church has valid sacraments thus the Grace of God may be given and people receive and live for the glory of God the Father of Jesus Christ.

[joasia]

joasia,

That is not a good answer.
My question deals with the organization (i.e., church’s administration) of the church and not with the organism (i.e., the Church perse). Organization and organism of the church are two different entities.

You wrote in your statement: I am not here to dispute your way of life or to argue about your faith; but to learn how you define yourself as an Orthodox Christian or how you understand Orthodoxy and its history, from the apostolic time to the present day.

And yet you judge that my answer is not good. Maybe you should put more thought into my answer. I am telling you how we define ourselves as Orthodox. That is what you are looking for, right? And yet you tell me my answer is not good. Maybe not good for you, but I don't think anyone else here would disagree. We don't worship our hierarchs. We look to Jesus Christ first as the Head of the Church and we are the body. Any hierarch that tries to step outside the boundaries of the apostolic traditions is considered a heretic. The true Orthodox hierarchs understand that they are a vessel of the Grace of God. To the Orthodox the organism of the Church defines the organization...Jesus Christ is the Head and we are the body. I know that you can't understand this because of the way you were taught. But, since you realize that we don't speak the same language, maybe you can give more consideration to the responses you get.

That is a simplistic and cut-and-dry response. Do you think that everybody in search for the true church is a computer literate? What about people in the third world countries; do you think they have access to this type of technology? You think in terms which reflect your American culture. Those people in the third world countries would not have a clue to what you are talking about.

I thought you were asking the question for yourself. I was responding to your situation. Who do you know, in the third world countries that is searching for the "true Church"? Or are you just making up an argument? I really think you were asking for yourself and not someone in the third world. The only thing that you can do is pray to God to show you where to go. If you are sincere then He will lead you to the true Church. Think about it...you found us. That's certainly a sign. And as for the third world people, God reaches out to them and if they want it, they will be brought to the truth.

Therefore, the point is that only a true Church has valid sacraments thus the Grace of God may be given and people receive and live for the glory of God the Father of Jesus Christ.

You got that right. Now, please forgive me for any offences my comments have made. I prostrate before you asking your forgiveness. I am receiving Holy Communion tomorrow.

Also, I prostrate before everyone here that reads this post. Please forgive me, a sinner.

In Christ,
Joanna

[NadirGP]

Joanna,

No offence taken … because:

The gem cannot be polished without friction, nor man perfected without trials.

God Bless,
Nadir

[maximus]

Hi Nadir.

[This will probably take 3 posts]

Before I respond, I need to emphasize how unqualified I am regarding theology, history, ecclesiology... I'm a 24 year old American sinner. How I define a "true Orthodox Church", I believe, has everything to do with my search and my path in getting to where I am now. By God's grace and mercy, I'm a Christian in what I believe is a "genuine" Orthodox Church. A genuine church that is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. If you wish to skip to my answering some of your questions, I do all of it on my 3rd post (the longest one).

About 3-4 years ago, God knows how long, I was a devout Roman Catholic. Or as devout as I thought I could be. I have always had a passionate disposition towards polemics and debate and would argue fiercely when it came to matters regarding Catholicism. In my arguments, or preparations for future ones, I'd often look at Scripture or different online sources for material to arm myself with. A solider should have ammunition. This is the mindset I had...

I had known about the Orthodox Church for some time now. A Catholic friend of mine even attended a Greek Orthodox church in FL during my "conversion-path" to Catholicism. I rejected it on aesthetic grounds alone - how could this unorganized, terrible-sounding, humble little blip of a church be authentically Christ's? I saw things externally and used my emotional responses as a litmus test for authenticity.

So I became Roman Catholic. When I was "confirmed", I was given a book by my godfather. It was called "The Mountain of Silence" by Kyriacos Markides. To summarize, it's basically a book about one man's experiences with Orthodox monks living on Mt. Athos, an island covered with ancient Orthodox monasteries. Here, I was given my first taste of something that resembles Orthodox spirituality. And I was exposed to the extreme and drastic differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Still, at the time, I was devoutly Roman Catholic. It was a book I liked to read, but it gave me no reason nor urge to up and leave my faith. What I do remember playing a part in my conversion was the practice of signing oneself with the Cross...

As you may know, Catholics sign themselves with a cross from the head-to-chest-to-left shoulder-to-right shoulder. The Orthodox do the same, except we sign from the right to the left. I do not know why this distinction stuck in my head, but it did. Little things. The Great Schism, papal infallibility, immaculate conception, papal supremacy - these were not the subjects that ate at me. Not yet. It the practice of signing with the Cross.

"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." (Luke 16:10)

I became obsessed with this. And before long, during the Catholic mass, I began to cross from right to left. My research had shown me that this had been the traditional practice for centuries. And the Roman Catholics had changed this. They had abandoned this. Why? And what else had they abandoned? These questions were seeds and they led to more research, more study.

I have been blessed to live in a society that allows people like myself to sift through numerous resources at the click of a button. You brought up thirld-world countries; maybe people like us have access to so much information so that we may pass it on to those who don't.

I'll end this post with a link, emphasis on the 10th paragraph: Catholic Encyclopedia: Sign of the Cross

[maximus]

[...continued from my last post]

So at some point in history, Roman Catholics had abandoned the practice of crossing themselves from right-to-left. I began to research other things they may have abandoned, leading me to the Filioque controversy...

[I'll confess, I'm assuming you know a bit about all of this stuff. Bear with me, please, if I'm only rehashing what you know. I'll get to the crux of the matter soon.]

History shows that the Creed recited during the Church services is the one established at the 2nd Great Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 381 AD. We call it the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed and is, in some form, used in almost every single church that claims an apostolic succession. You know it. The Filioque controversy was about three words ("...and the Son,") added to this ancient, holy Creed. It is the one which is used by the Roman Catholics today. And it was not what the Roman Catholics used prior to the 10th century...

Here again I come in contact with a change, an alteration in a Christian practice. But this one had more theological implications than the direction the sign of the cross is made in... This one was a major factor in the Great Schism of 1054 AD, when the Roman Catholic church with its Patriarch (the Pope) separated from the Eastern Churches of the world. This was HUGE!!!

As I stated before, I am no theologian. I do not understand how God exists as the Holy Trinity, nor may I ever. This is where faith comes into play. I must have faith that what the Church teaches is true. And yet, here was a major theological difference between the two most ancient Christian churches in the world. The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father. I could never understand this. But I COULD find out what the ancient Christians believed, what they held to. One such resource has been the Christian Classics Ethereal Library. While mostly Protestant in nature, it has an online collection of hundreds of ancient Christian writings, from the Fathers themselves.

Changes, changes, changes... At this point, during the mass, I began to stop saying "and the Son" during the recitation of the Creed, for I was now fully convinced this was not an apostolic tradition. I began to put many questions to my very close Roman Catholic friends. Why did this happen? Why does the Roman Catholic church as it exists today so DIFFERENT from the ancient church? I was told by a Catholic priest that the church can be likened to an acorn - it starts out as a seed (antiquity) but grows into a tree (contemporary practice and theology). None of their answers could bear weight and I was dismissed for my "infidelity to the Roman Catholic faith".

I was a convert. I was a sinner. I believe in their minds, this is why I "fell away"...

Truth is. What was once true will always be true. And God does not change. How could His Church, His Body, change? And I don't mean in superficial external matters (language, material used for clergy vestments, types of incense, etc.) How could the Church change what it believes? How could there be a "left and right lung" of Christ's body when one of them breathes helium and the other breathes oxygen? Something's not right here.

After a very painful time, I was now convinced, as you seem to be, that Roman Catholicism had lost its grace - it was no longer God's Church. It was no longer a part of His Body. And where to go to now? There was Orthodoxy, the body of churches that Roman Catholicism broke from so long ago. Orthodoxy, which I had rejected, had come back into my life in a different light.

Of course, I did not expect to run into another obstacle which I will touch on with my next post - the question of "genuine" or "true" Orthodoxy, what defines a true Church and how to find it. Old Calenderism/New Calenderism. The "jurisdiction problem". Ecumenism. By the grace and mercy of God, I was brought to Orthodoxy...

And now had to confront a more complex situation than the one that preceded it.

[maximus]

[...continued from my last post]

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

You asked if the litmus test for an Orthodox church/jurisdiction to be worthy of the name was an adherence to the Old Calendar and a rejection of Ecumenism. No. I used to think this way, after carefully studying the "calendar question" and concluding that the "Old Calendarists" have it right. I learned the hard way that there is more to true Orthodoxy than meeting these two criteria...

I came into contact, and even intimate spiritual influence, with a small group out of Colorado, led by a man named Gregory. I was impressed by their writings: they were hard-line anti-Ecumenists, they followed the Old Calendar, the way they walked, talked - everything about them seemed right.

Except they had been excommunicated by their synod, their leaders. They had broken Canon law. They were not a part of the Church.

So this is where I'm going to start answering, the best I can, some of the questions you have. I will try to guide you to the resources I used to make a reasonable conclusion. And I truly believe, if you are truly searching, truly asking, that God will guide you into the truth. So let's get started.

---

You asked: "What Canons and when were these Canons established? Are these Canons the equivalent to what the Catholic Church calls the Canon Law?"

These: The Canons of the Apostles
And these: The Seven Ecumenical Councils and their Canons.

These canons were established between the time of the Apostles and 787 AD at the 7th Ecumenical Council held in Nicaea. I cannot answer the 2nd part of your question very well as I do not know what the Roman Catholics believe about their own Canon law. We Orthodox hold these Canons in extreme esteem. They help us guard our Faith and preserve our Holy Tradition. They help the modern man KNOW what the Tradition has been and is now (depending on the church and jurisdiction).

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You asked: "...within the Orthodox Church organization, is there such thing as the Ultimate Authority, which oversees all ecclesiastic theological, moral and disciplinary matters? In the positive, what is the name?"

The Ultimate Authority IS Jesus Christ. But what you're asking about is administrative authority, a governing person or body that oversees these important matters. Like the Pope right? The problem with making one human the "ultimate authority" is that you place the foundation of your church on the shoulders of sinful men. What should happen if his shoulders are weak? What should happen if he is utterly terrible and betrays the faith in favor of pleasing other men? The church will crumble.

Our administrative authority comes from our synods, our collections of bishops who guide the churches (the Church) on the path to salvation. They do not do this of their own accord but, if they be truly Orthodox, by adhering and enforcing the Canons established by the Holy Fathers over 1,000 years ago. This is how it has always been. For a Scriptural reference to this, read Acts 15, wherein the administrative function of the synod, or council, is established.

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You asked: "Can you say that any Orthodox Church that joins [or joined] the WCC can still be a true church?"

No. They break several Apostolic Canons in doing this:
"If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated." - Canon 64
Which leads to: "If any one shall pray, even in a private house, with an excommunicated person, let him also be excommunicated." - Canon 10

Those who call themselves Orthodox and pray with Protestants (heretics) have led themselves into excommunication from the Church.

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You asked: How do I know I am receiving divine grace through the Sacraments if the church that I am in is without grace in the first place?

You're not receiving divine grace from the sacraments... Because those aren't sacraments. If the church you attend is without grace then it is not a part of God's Church; how then can the bread and wine be His Body and Blood? You are not receiving the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ - you're only receiving bread and wine.

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You asked: Anybody, who is in search for a true Orthodox Church anywhere in the world, where he/she should look and what is the right question to ask, in order to avoid making a false path?

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8)

You ask God for the truth and His mercy. No matter what the cost. And you keep asking. Hoping. Praying. Have faith that He loves you and wants you to be with Him in eternal communion. And that He will lead you there...

However, I think you're looking for a different kind of answer. Ask if they are Orthodox, as in Eastern Orthodox. Ask if they follow the Old Calendar. Ask if they are in communion with anyone involved with Ecumenism (that includes any "orthodox" church in the WCC). Unfortunately, this part is tougher, but you need to find out about the church's/jurisdiction's history. For yourself, with internet, that will be simple. Not easy, but simple. These are trying times and it will get confusing and complicated - keep at it and you'll find it. And once you think you've found it, I personally think you should keep challenging it. Because we live in a very dark time; we are close to the end. And St. Paul prophesied that many would fall away from the true faith (2 Thes 2:3).

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Nadir, this website was very helpful for me in learning about True Orthodoxy, the Calendar, Ecumenism, etc. It helped me in dealing with my Roman Catholic concerns. It's helped me in many ways: Orthodox Info

Please correct me, everyone, if I have posted any errors. Please pray for me that I may be forgiven for any indulgences I may have taken with these posts. Thank you.

[NadirGP]

Maximus,

What you write is music to my hears, not because it is new, but because it’s in tune with what I already know and believe. I really thank you for your friendly and passionate words.

Maranatha,

Nadir