On Headcoverings and Modesty of Women in Church

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Miriam
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ramblings

Post by Miriam »

I have been following some of these threads for some time now and they have set me to thinking quite a bit about a whole bunch of things. So much so, that I have decided to set some of my thoughts down on paper. This is not meant to change anyone’s mind or even to say I’m right or wrong. I’ll listen to any well-reasoned arguments, but would ask that you not throw any off the cuff one-liners. If you have something to say please include your argument.

Lately the whole idea of women’s modest has yet again raised its head. Right up front I will say that I AM NOT AGAINST the wearing of scarves. What I most object to, is the way the whole topic of modesty is approached. Natasha wrote that women are supposed to pray with heads covered because it says so in the Bible. If one examines the Bible, one will find that God also told MEN to cover their heads when they pray. The church chose to abandon this practice because it was too Jewish and since they wanted to distance themselves from the Jews…. there went the head coverings for men.

Then there is that whole thing about the inferiority of women. The church fiercely debated for centuries as to whether women even had a soul, so it is not surprising that the role of women is relegated to such a low position. While Christ elevated womankind, the church elders persisted in de-elevating her at every turn. In many cases reinforcing existing cultural norms. Makes one wonder, what about womankind, scared the men of the times. Women became the “source” and the “cause” of men’s, hence society’s, problems. When womankind complained, she was told that a husband’s abuse was deserved, to bear it as her due; she had no right to complain. When abandoned by her husband, it became her fault and her just deserts. Unable to support herself and her children, that is if her husband did not take them away, she was condemned as the lowest of the low and doomed to poverty. Children were taught the prejudices of the fathers. Often an abused became the abuser. Attempts to make changes to the social norms were frequently met with disaster, condemnation or death. Let’s not forget that whole witch thing either. It happened in Orthodoxy as much as any other religion. It’s just not talked about.

This leads me to ask, “what about the modesty and integrity of men”? Men can be and are as much affected by fashion as women … the whole tight jean thing, for instance. You gentlemen can wear them and not give it a second thought. The effect that they have on WOMEN doesn’t even enter into your mind. The view from behind as you make those prostrations is at times…for lack of a nicer word… interesting. Then there are those knit tee shirts, which accentuate all those loverly, and not so loverly, masculine features. Modesty works both ways. What applies to one gender should apply to the other. So before you run around judging womankind, clean up your own act.

Ethnicity… such an ugly word sometimes. Often it’s just an excuse for propagating prejudice and bias. Don’t get me wrong, I am as proud of my ethnic background as the next person. My culture is part of who I am, it colors my world, I speak the language of my forbearers. I, never the less, will say that I am an American first and Russian second. I do not try to compel others to be what I am. Orthodox churches, here in America, were frequently established by ethnic groups to create a place, where they could practice not only their beliefs, but also as a place to be able socialize amongst like people. In doing this, they lost sight of the fact that the church belongs to ORTHODOX people. It does not belong to just the Russians, just the Greeks or just any other ethnic group. All too frequently ethnic groups view the “incursion” of converts as the invasion of the undesirables. This comes out in unfriendliness, hostility and other forms of “ugliness”. Converts want to change things. Our children will lose their identity. And etc. The question becomes then…is it your ethnicity that is more important or is it your orthodoxy that is more important? One needs not lose the first, to practice the second.

In some ways the battle for the ethnicity is lost anyway. Where are all those clubs that existed in the beginning? Where are the schools that were established? Why is it that much of the youth has lost the ability to speak the mother tongue properly? Time is slowly eroding all of these things. Only occasional “infusions” from the “old country” serve to continue the fiction. We are becoming more and more American and the only constant remaining is our Orthodoxy.

Not long ago, I was part of a group discussion about a “mistake” the early church fathers made. One not so young --but not old either—person made the statement that the 3rd century church elders made a serious mistake when they strove with such ardor to separate themselves from Judaism. Rather, this person felt, that the better path would have been to maintain the “Judaism” and to incorporate it into the Christianity of the times. An interesting argument and I think not without merit. Consider where the whole Judaic thing would be now if there was no Judaism as we know it ….. hmmmmm …..

Inevitably, someone is bound to bring up that whole idea that God condemned the Jews, Maybe he did, but who is to say that he would not have forgiven them eventually? Are we gods that we know the mind of GOD? Maybe He would have done something that would have changed things? Besides, we as Orthodox are supposed to practice that rule of forgiving one’s enemies, but we somehow seem to forget about that. What if we had worked harder to forgive the Jews and prayed for them? Maybe God would have heard our prayers? Instead we assumed the role of judge and condemned a people, a nation. Something that really was not ours to do.

Which brings me to a whole other thought… Why is it okay to forgive your enemy but only as long as he is orthodox? Why is a sin against an Orthodox person a sin, but a sin against a non-Orthodox person okay? Why is compassion to an Orthodox person more important than compassion for another human being? … I’ve been running into a lot of this lately. Makes me madder than a bothered hornet…

The good old days…. Often, you hear the elderly bemoaning the lost days of long ago. What they forget is that they were the angst ridden youth of those days, and their grandparents were bemoaning the lost days of yore too. They raised us to be independent, self-sufficient individuals and then turn around and tell us to shut up and sit down when we express an opinion. How many “young people” are active parts of the church councils? (My brother was 40 years old and still considered a dumb young person by the members our church council. When he was elected to the council, his role was largely that of a figurehead. Shut up, keep quiet, listen to your elders -- was the rule.) Wonder who imported the American rule of “Children should be seen but not heard?” Or maybe it was a universal rule?

Politics….. As I consider history, I find myself disturbed by the tendency of the church and it’s leaders to get deeply mixed up in politics. Consider the Byzantine Church and even the Pre-revolution Russian Church. Both were in so deep with the politics of the times, that when the governments fell the church fell too. Bishops and elders were often political appointees, not duly elevated members from within the hierarchy of the church. All actions of the Russian church had to be “approved” by the Tsar as head of the church. This creates a situation rife for disaster. Something that history has shown us. (And boy did we “learn” from history – oh sure!! Ha!) The whole church structure is built on a political framework. It is little wonder that we are experiencing the splintering problems of today. A friend of mine maintains that if the church were to call a synod of all peoples… one that includes the laity as well as the non-laity … the resulting trauma would result in the total collapse of the church hierarchy.

The men of old who were able to lead us through the murky waters of the world are gone and there are none to replace them. Liudmilla was right when she wrote that in the end all that will be left are small pockets of Orthodox people worshipping as best as they can. My own feeling is that the “leaders” of our churches should be ashamed of what their ambitions have wrought. And I mean all, not just one or another jurisdiction. It will not be the little people who will be responsible for the apostasy before God but the leaders themselves. They should have known better.

So much for this set of insane, or maybe not, ramblings. These are my thoughts please respect them as such. I know that not all will agree with me, but if you must comment please give me the why, wherefore and how come…you never know you might change my mind, or not.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

I'm afraid you haven't said anything I could respond to without offending you. Suffice to say, I mostly disagreed with what you said. I just think you need to keep on thinking about things (as you are). You mention females and whether they have souls for instance... which was never debated by the church, but perhaps by a few people within the church here and there. Said people (for the most part) also discussed the concept of the human body being "ensouled" 40 days (or another number) after conception. This doesn't mean that the Church ever questioned whether a newly conceived baby was human, just because a couple fathers were asking questions (much in the same way that you are asking questions)... not going by tradition, but going again tradition and speculating.

And your friend was right, the Church would probably fall apart. Democracy is an overthrow of God.

I do hope you keep asking questions, though. And stick around and post.

Last edited by Justin Kissel on Tue 19 August 2003 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Logos
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Post by Logos »

This ethnicity subject is a dicey one. I agree that men too should be modest. However, it is a scientifically known fact that men are more visually stimulated while women are auditorily?(spelling) stimulated. The chronic sin that affects MOST women relate to modesty while the sin that affects MOST men is brutality. I am dress modestly....I don't wear tight shirts or tight parents. You can where what you want just don't expect me to respect you.

My soul is lonely dark and afraid.

Miriam
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Post by Miriam »

Thanks for your comments, I'll have to sleep on it tonight and see how I can answer you.

Logos--be careful of assuming...it'll get you into trouble. I am hardly an advocate of current fashions...ech!...I have been described as a classy lady (emphasis on LADY), so modesty is no problem here....I simply dislike the approach to the modesty question. Things just seem entirely too one sided and that is not right.

Logos
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One more thing

Post by Logos »

Men are becoming more and more feminized in this society do to feminism and the homosexual revolution. The reason why men's clothing is becoming tighter and less modest is that homosexual culture is dictating to the mainstream society. I think it will only get worse until the whole thing backfires.

My soul is lonely dark and afraid.

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Liudmilla
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Post by Liudmilla »

Logos:
It is not that men are becoming feminized. Our society is becoming de-sensitizied to all that is wrong in the world. We are bombarded with so much that it is hard to take it all in. There are good men out there, men who are caring, decent human beings. The hard part is finding the balance.

We are humans who try to be oh so sophisticated and in, so much so that we forget what we need to fight for. As Orthodox Christians we need to remember that and fight even harder. But we also need to remember that balance, so that we do not do harm to others in our zealotness.

Do not fear the caring part of you...that soft spot, we women adore... it does not emasculate you. It only serves to make you a child of God.

Miriam
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Post by Miriam »

Justin:

First of all I am not afraid of being offended. So feel free to comment away. As I said you just might change my mind :wink:.

Secondly, I find your comment about Democracy interesting. You are probably right. But then again our present system isn't working to well either. What I find interesting is that in the Old testament there is instance after instance where you find that the Jews argue and bargain with God, who seems to enjoy and engage in it too. So maybe the democracy might work in certain ways.

Third, the argument about women's souls actually goes back even before the church. Jewish rabbis were arguing the point for centuries before the establishment of the church. I'll see what I can find on the topic.

Fourth, I always ask questions....don't always get answers, but I do question.

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