Choral concert at Chicago ROCOR Cathedral

[TomS]

As I understand this, the woman, i.e. the mother plays are very strong role in the current Jewish family.

The operative word here would be "current"

She is the matriarch, not a second-class citizen.

A position granted to her WITHIN the FAMILY. Because she was the childbearer and the one who raised the child. Her "power" was strictly limited to the family unit. She was the social fabric that held the family together.

What damned nonsense to suggest that the Holy Apostle spoke from a Jewish masculine perspective.

What damned nonsense that you could read the Old Testament and NOT understand otherwise.

He spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Granted. But utilizing cultural norms of the time.

[尼古拉前执事]

Tom, as was said in the last thread where you brought all of this up (and you conceded to it last time and hopefully will again) perhaps it is not Saint Paul's perception of men and women that was corrupted but rather that of the modern world.

[TomS]

... perhaps it is not Saint Paul's perception of men and women that was corrupted but rather that of the modern world.

Could you please point me to the thread you referenced. Is it the one about "St Paul's baggage"? Cause If it is, I don't see specifically where I said that -- maybe I am just missing it.

[尼古拉前执事]

It appears it was in the concurrent OCnyet thread you started on it too:

Athanasius: The reason why we must accept everything St. Paul wrote is because his works have been recognized as divinely inspired scripture. Fathers or saints do not have this level of authority and do contain some errors in their works.
Yes the Bible is not a literal transcription from God, i.e. God is most definetly using human authors speaking in a human way. But the teachings of scripture are from God. In other words, while the Bible isn't a literal word for word transcription from God all of the teachings in it (including St. Paul's teaching on women) are coming from God.
Perhaps you are looking at things backwards. Perhaps it is not St. Paul's view of women that is wrong, but contemporary society's view which is askew and since you are so used to thinking that way you assume that his view must be wrong.
Why God chose him to write so much of the New Testament, I don't know. Why God chose Moses to write the whole Torah I don't know either.

Toms: Yes, that certainly is a possibility.

[TomS]

Yeah. I went found it over there too.

But I did say "That is possible" Not that I believed it.

Generally, I don't reject other opinions out of hand when I myself am unsure of my position. That being the case, I did not see anything else posted to suppoert and therefore convince me of Anastasios opinion.

The quote was:

"Perhaps you are looking at things backwards. Perhaps it is not St. Paul's view of women that is wrong, but contemporary society's view which is askew and since you are so used to thinking that way you assume that his view must be wrong"

On further reading - this makes no sense. It is a circular argument.

[priestmark]

"IT" is important! We follow traditions, written and unwritten! We follow written Holy Scripture! Holy Scripture written by the Holy Apostle Paul, therefore it is to be taken with seriousness and obedience! Yes, That was the way women humbled themselves in that time period. Remember this, the SACRED vestments of the Orthodox Church originated from the regular dress in the time period f the Holy Apostles and The Lord Jesus Christ, the Church did not change the vestments every time the fashions of the world changed! And therefore the Tradition of women covering their heads while in Church has not been changed, and should not be tampered with!

Read. Search. Explore. Find the Holy traditions that are no longer a part of "Praxis" and tell me why they are not.

I thought maybe you would like to see a picture of him with whom you interact. He is on the far left in this picture.
http://www.orprcamp.org/images/olympics_stage.htm

I am at camp this week serving as the priest and staying in the Bishop's House (Archbishop Seraphim that is, who reposed in the mid '80s) - in fact 8 members of our family are here at this time. I hope to see Michael Woerl (who also used to post to this list), who lives here at Vladimirova (the community founded by Archbp Seraphim) but he is in the hospital somewhere with a herniated disk in his back. Pray for him.

Liturgy was very nice today. Just came into town (Freeport, IL) to the library to check (delete) mail and get some espresso (yes, they have espresso at the public library!!) and since I have a little liesure time today, to look in on this list and post for the first time in forever.

In Christ,
priest Mark
temprarily in Vladimirova (Lost Lake), IL

[Justin Kissel]

Nice to see you again, Fr. Mark