WHAT A SHAMEFUL UNION!!!

[GOCTheophan]

The Serbian Patriarchate in the 1920s smuggled in Holy Chrism too the suffering Orthodox Church in Greece being attack as it was by New Calendarist schismatics. Also its last Bishop Archbishop Nikolai of Orchid of Blessed memory said that though the whole world would serve with the New Calendarists he would not. There was a time when the Serbian Patriarchate was True Orthodox.

ROCOR's relationship with World Orthodoxy was always vague even from the begining. Remember the EP was in FULL COMMUNION with the Renovationists in Russia and Patriarch Tikhon had more or less broken with it. Certainly even in the 1970s Archbishop Anthony of Geneva was Communing Roman Catholics and concelebrating with the apostates but that was at the time when your Synod was in Full Communion with ROCOR. Did the Matthewites fall away in the 1970s? Yes or No?

Theophan.

[Constantine]

Dear Theophane, what proof do you have that the SP smuggled chrism to the GOC of Greece? In the 20's the priests of the GOC would still have had chrism left from the pre NC bishops. The only place I have ever read this was articles by Mr Vladimir Moss, nowhere else. Also Archbishop Nikolai of Orchid may have said he would not serve with NC church of greece, but he never cut communion with them, he was brothers in christ with the NC bishops. Rocors relationship with world orthodoxy has NEVER been vague, they have ALWAYS been in communion with world orthodoxy. There have been a few "gems" in rocor that have tried to steer rocor away from this but they made the mistake of trying to struggle from within and their "struggles" went nowhere and was smothered out by the ecumenists in rocor.As far as your matthewite question, of course the answer is no, they were lied to by rocor. The Matthewites were told that rocor was severing all relations with world orthodoxy and that rocor would issue a epistle that the nc was graceless, based on this communion between the matthewites and rocor occured. Rocor did not do this, so the communion with rocor was based on a lie and therfore a false communion.

[GOCTheophan]

Dear Theophane, what proof do you have that the SP smuggled chrism to the GOC of Greece? In the 20's the priests of the GOC would still have had chrism left from the pre NC bishops. The only place I have ever read this was articles by Mr Vladimir Moss, nowhere else.

Well I havent come across it in any articles by Reader Vladimir. Which one are you refering too? What date is it? I came across that in an old post on Paradosis (from 1999 I think I have unsubscribed from that demonized forum) by someone who is now in your Synod.

In 1921 the EP OFFICALLY confessed the pan-heresy of Ecumenism and no one in Greece including the future Archbishop Matthew broke from them. By your logic it seems that would mean the Orthodox Church in Greece came to an end than and that only these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belokrinitskaya_Hierarchy could be the only possible Orthodox Church left on earth.

In 1983 ROCOR ANATHEMIZED anyone who KNOWINGLY HAS COMMUNION with the Ecumenist apostates....If it was a cut and dry fact that ROCOR was a part of World Orthodoxy why would they ANATHEMIZE themselves conciously? That makes no sense to me.

Whatever you might think about Reader Vladimir's writings I would not trust Mr John Shaw's (I stand by what I said that if his version of ROCOR history is correct than I would be FORCED to become a Matthewite).

Theophan.

[pjhatala]

[quote="GOCTheophan"]krinitskaya_Hierarchy could be the only possible Orthodox Church left on earth.

In 1983 ROCOR ANATHEMIZED anyone who KNOWINGLY HAS COMMUNION with the Ecumenist apostates....If it was a cut and dry fact that ROCOR was a part of World Orthodoxy why would they ANATHEMIZE themselves conciously? That makes no sense to me.

Theophan.[/quote

Dear Theophan,
You should look more closely at the issue. ROCOR certainly continued to concelebrate with Serbia and Jerusalem after the 1983 anathema (see my reply to you in the dissenters/donatist thread).

I don't usually like to give links to webpages, but I can't say it any better than this:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecum_anath.aspx

[Constantine]

Dear Theophane, when the EP first changed to the NC, did Mount Athos stop commemerating him? I believe the answer to this is yes, who was on Mount Athos at that time?

Also let us deal with facts:

Rocor has always communed with world orthodoxy, and never for even 1 day OFFICIALy stopped.

Also we both know that the GOC did not cease to exist in 1920's because the church received the 3 bishops who returned to the GOC.

[GOCTheophan]

Dear Theophane, when the EP first changed to the NC, did Mount Athos stop commemerating him? I believe the answer to this is yes, who was on Mount Athos at that time?

Also let us deal with facts:

Rocor has always communed with world orthodoxy, and never for even 1 day OFFICIALy stopped.

Also we both know that the GOC did not cease to exist in 1920's because the church received the 3 bishops who returned to the GOC.

Dear Constantine,

I was not talking about the New Calendarist schism. I was talking about the Letter that the EP sent out in 1921(1920?) that said that Anglicans and Papists were part of the Church- i.e. confessing offically the Ecumenist heresy in its earlier "Christian" form (we both know that now the Ecumenists believe that Hinduism and Islam are "co-heirs in Christ" too). No one in Greece or Mount Athos broke Communion with the EP at that time.

Are you saying that you honestly believe that the entire ROCOR synod in 1983 conciously ANATHEMIZED themselves- i.e. DELIBERATELY DAMNED THEMSELVES TO ETERNAL TORMENTS IN HELL?

Theophan.

[GOCTheophan]

krinitskaya_Hierarchy could be the only possible Orthodox Church left on earth.

In 1983 ROCOR ANATHEMIZED anyone who KNOWINGLY HAS COMMUNION with the Ecumenist apostates....If it was a cut and dry fact that ROCOR was a part of World Orthodoxy why would they ANATHEMIZE themselves conciously? That makes no sense to me.

Theophan.[/quote

Dear Theophan,
You should look more closely at the issue. ROCOR certainly continued to concelebrate with Serbia and Jerusalem after the 1983 anathema (see my reply to you in the dissenters/donatist thread).

I don't usually like to give links to webpages, but I can't say it any better than this:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecum_anath.aspx

The private opinion of one Bishop is just that.

What matters is the Church as a whole.

Can you please produce documentation from the Church Fathers that Anathemas only apply to those under the Synod that issues the Anathema?

This is not the belief of the Orthodox Church however it does seem that since Bishop Gregory Grabbe was forced out ROCOR has been making it up as it goes along....All the way to finally throwing away any desire to be Orthodox in the real sense away. Or did Orthodoxy only begin with ROCOR? Is ROCOR somehow "above it all"? Please forgive my sarcasm but that is the impression that many ROCOR people give me.

Also please remember that the Jerusalem Patriarchate considered ROCOR schismatic offically.

Are you saying that the Synod of ROCOR CONCIOUSLY DAMNED THEMSELVES TO THE ETERNAL FIRE WHEN THEY ANATHEMIZED THOSE WHO KNOWINGLY HAD COMMUNION WITH THE ECUMENIST APOSTATES?

Please forgive my shouting but that is what both you and Constantine seem to be saying though of course I find it a lot easier to believe that Constantine has a geniune love of Truth than any Lavrite.

And if you and Constantine are correct in your assesment than we will all have the join place ourselves under the Synod of Met Gregorios of Messelina if we want to remain Orthodox.

Theophan.