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[fserafim]

There is an excellent book on the calendar question by Igumen Cassian of the Bulgarian Church (Church Calendar). In it he states that the calendar is relevant to us on earth, not to those in heaven. The Church calendar was established by the saints on earth at that time. Why change it? For theological reasons or spiritual reasons - yes. For secular reasons - no.
It was changed for the latter. Now we have two churches - one that is sensitive to the spiritual, the other sensitive to secular society. During the schism in Greece, the Holy Cross appeared in the sky at the normal, agreed date of the saints. Again in my experience, certain events happened according to the normal Church Calendar i.e. 9/11, which we will be commemorating on the same day/date i.e commemoration of the Beheading of St John Baptist, the day when the Church, according to the Church calendar remembers those innocent victims who met an untimely death. It is not a coincidence that the text of Matins asks the Theotokos to protect us from the Hagarenes. What do the secularist do on this day? We will serve an all-night vigil for the innocent victims of the recent tragedy in Russia. (Our parish is Russian).

[George Australia]

Now we have two churches -

No, we have One Church and two calendars- let's not catastrophize and put schisms where there are no schisms. The Patriachate of Jerusalem is in full Communion with the Church of Greece- One Church, two calendars.

[joasia]

Anyone who tries to teach that the calendar is dogma is not living by the traditions passed down from the Apostles.

The Apostles were at the beginning of Christianity, we are at the end with all the examples of history that should give us a clear focus.

I'm not teaching it...I'm confessing it. Does it really make sense to celebrate the Dormition of the Theotokos on seperate dates if the Church is suppose to be united? Or different times to celebrate Christmas....It's a contradiction. God is not chaos. Mankind created that. One calendar is correct to follow and one is not. It's the reason behind changing the calendar, for example, with the Greeks, that is the issue we should examine.

One Church, two calendars.

Does that make any sense at all?? We might as well say, One God, and thousands of ways of worshipping. Does THAT make any sense??

I understand if someone argues about keeping one calendar or the other, but you are arguing to keep BOTH calendars. Not even new calendarists would argue that. They just think that the old calendarists are fanatic and stick to what they grew up with.

George, as for your confusion: ???????Then why do you keep saying that the New Calendarists follow the Gregorian Calendar?

I didn't say that. I was quoting you from a previous post. You said it. That's why I repeated that you are confused.

communist, ecumenist and protestant...not bad eh?

Not good either. You talk about me not following the Apostolic traditions? I may confuse names and dates, but not the spiritual teachings. My comments are very prejudice when it comes to supporting Orthodoxy. Just to make it clear, I am prejudice ABOUT supporting Orthodoxy. Didn't want you to get confused about my comment.

Again in my experience, certain events happened according to the normal Church Calendar i.e. 9/11, which we will be commemorating on the same day/date i.e commemoration of the Beheading of St John Baptist, the day when the Church, according to the Church calendar remembers those innocent victims who met an untimely death. It is not a coincidence that the text of Matins asks the Theotokos to protect us from the Hagarenes. What do the secularist do on this day? We will serve an all-night vigil for the innocent victims of the recent tragedy in Russia. (Our parish is Russian).

I agree, Fr. Serafim. The old calendar date is Aug. 29th..the Beheading of St. John the Baptist. But, for the new calendarists, it's the commemoration of St. Theodora of Alexandra and others (Sept 11). So they really missed out on the true spiritual message of that event.

St. John was also know as the Forerunner. I wonder what he is proclaiming this time. What is he warning us about now?

Who were the Hagarenes? Is it significant to our time?

We will serve an all-night vigil for the innocent victims of the recent tragedy in Russia.

There is a great spiritual battle happening in Russia. It is very significant for the Russian people, because they are trying to regain the faith that their predecessors have thrown away. The evil one hates them now, even more than ever, because the people are trying to regain the spiritual stability that their grandparents lost or that their grandparents died to keep alive for the next generations. The evil one sees a re-surgence of spiritual enthusiasm and he is continuing his plan of destruction.

Eternal memory for those who died. And prayers for all those who survived and for Russia.

In Christ,

Joanna

[George Australia]

Anyone who tries to teach that the calendar is dogma is not living by the traditions passed down from the Apostles. I'm not teaching it...I'm confessing it. Does it really make sense to celebrate the Dormition of the Theotokos on seperate dates if the Church is suppose to be united? Or different times to celebrate Christmas....It's a contradiction.

If the calendar is an Apostolic dogma or tradition you are confessing, then why was the Nativity of Our Lord celebrated on 4 different dates in the Church for 600 years?

I understand if someone argues about keeping one calendar or the other, but you are arguing to keep BOTH calendars. Not even new calendarists would argue that. They just think that the old calendarists are fanatic and stick to what they grew up with.

Wrong again. If the New Calendarists only accept the New Calendar, why are they in Communion with the Russian Orthodox Church, Jerusalem Patriarchate and Mount Athos who follow the Old Calendar? Of Course the New Calendarists accept both calendars, and most Old Calendarists accept the New Calendarists.

George, as for your confusion: ???????Then why do you keep saying that the New Calendarists follow the Gregorian Calendar?
I didn't say that. I was quoting you from a previous post. You said it. That's why I repeated that you are confused.

You've still lost me here.

I agree, Fr. Serafim. The old calendar date is Aug. 29th..the Beheading of St. John the Baptist. But, for the new calendarists, it's the commemoration of St. Theodora of Alexandra and others (Sept 11). So they really missed out on the true spiritual message of that event.
St. John was also know as the Forerunner. I wonder what he is proclaiming this time. What is he warning us about now?

Does the term "delusion of reference" mean anything to you people?
George

[George Australia]

I agree, Fr. Serafim. The old calendar date is Aug. 29th..the Beheading of St. John the Baptist. But, for the new calendarists, it's the commemoration of St. Theodora of Alexandra and others (Sept 11). So they really missed out on the true spiritual message of that event.

Dear in Christ, Joanna,
Spiritual message? The attack on the World Trade Centre was an unconsionable evil. God did not send it- God does not have anything to do with evil. It was the work of the devil. Therefore any "spiritual message" in this event you are attuning yourself to is coming from Satan.
George

[romiosini]

Actually let me propose one thing. (Personally I do not want to take any position in this dispute George or Joanna are having. So whatever I am going to post in the following, hopefully it will not be reversed back with conclusions. Just think about it).

Let say for example Saint Catherine and Saint Mercurius the Great Martyrs whom the Slavic Churches celebrate them on November 24 which Is the day of their Martyrdom. But centuries ago, the Hellenic Church decide to switch the dates of the Greatmartyrs Saints Catherine and Mercurius with the Saints whom fell asleep on November 25 (Saints Peter of Alexandria and Clement of Rome) switched with eachother's dates. Because the Hellenics wanted them to have the minor Saints celebrated before the Great Greatmartyrs.

[joasia]

If the calendar is an Apostolic dogma or tradition you are confessing, then why was the Nativity of Our Lord celebrated on 4 different dates in the Church for 600 years?

It's not the calendar aspect...it's the fact of celebrating in unison. It has to be followed by one calendar, by all. Otherwise, how can people see Orthodoxy as the true teaching of Christ (preserving the word of God), if we argue amongst ourselves?

Can you, at least, agree that one calendar is more appropriate to follow than two or three?

The Greek Patriarch was following the Julian calendar, along with all of Greece and the other Orthodox countries(and Mount Athos), until he decided to change to the Gregorian in 1924. It was only the Roman papists who were following the Gregorian. Point being...why make the change, all of a sudden? That's when all the splits happened with old and new calendarists. Some concelebrate between old and new and some ABSOLUTELY refuse. Now caos has been established. This is not spiritually good for anyone.

If the New Calendarists only accept the New Calendar, why are they in Communion with the Russian Orthodox Church, Jerusalem Patriarchate and Mount Athos who follow the Old Calendar?

That's a good question. Maybe you should ask them. Because I'd certainly like to know their explanation. Why did Fr. Ephraim start with the new, then go to the Russians, then go back to the new??

A person's actions does not clarify the issue; it confuses it even more. But, from what I've heard...some of those clergy who stay with the new, feel too intimidated to leave because of personal reasons. Basically...they are too scared to rock the boat. But, I have heard that many clergy with the new, do believe in keeping the old calendar, they just don't have the courage to leave their place. And many monks on Mount Athos have spoke against the Patriarch of Constantinople about calendar issues and other church issues, and they were attacked. Didn't you hear of the monastery that was cut off from food because they dared to speak against the Patriarch? They were threatened to be forcibly removed. There was a big commotion about it last year. Or was it two. The years go by too fast.

Of Course the New Calendarists accept both calendars, and most Old Calendarists accept the New Calendarists.

Maybe in Australia, but I guarentee you, not in North America. People are embarrassed if they have old calendarists in their family. The old calendarists tolerate their new calendar relatives here, but there is no union. They don't even say Hronia Pola on each other's names day.

Spiritual message? The attack on the World Trade Centre was an unconsionable evil. God did not send it- God does not have anything to do with evil. It was the work of the devil. Therefore any "spiritual message" in this event you are attuning yourself to is coming from Satan.

Like I said, you are confused. I didn't say God sent it. The event of evil-doers happened on a day that made alot of Orthodox people open their eyes in great shock. Not only because of the tragedy, but because of the significance of that day, in itself. But, to us it means alot more, because it was closer to home, than where you are. The attack came from satan, but it really struck us in our hearts as a warning, especially because of the date. I thought it was just my own personal opinion, but when I started talking to other Orthodox about it, they had the same feeling. It was a definite warning. It just seemed very significant that it happened on that date. It could have happened on any other, but when we saw that it was the Beheading of St. John, we all thought the same way...what is going to happen now? God gave mankind freewill and He knows what we will do, but if we don't always listen to Him in our hearts, He will send us the message in other ways that will make us stand up and notice. The event happened because of man's free will, but the date happened because God choose to send us the message.

Maybe I'm not expressing it well. God will not stop us from doing what we want in our free will, but He will be able to influence when we want to express that free will, pehaps through delays or other diversions. In this case, He allowed this event to happen on this date. God DOES allow the devil to perform his evil or not. Don't forget the story about Job.
God allows us to be tempted, but He is always there calling to us to hear Him instead of going through with the act. So, no, God did not send this evil...but He allows it because we don't want to listen to Him. But, He also wanted us to realize the spiritual significance of this event and that is why He let it happen on this particular date.

Romiosini,

Like you said, it was centuries ago.

But, by this day and age, where all dates have been pretty much settled, there should be an understanding amongst the Orthodox that following one calendar is a fact of keeping the Orthodox united. Otherwise, non-Orthodox people will look at us and not take us seriously because we can't even stay united about calendar issues. We look like a joke to them. We try to live by the teachings of Christ which we uphold to be the TRUE teachings, which we now call Orthodox.. the tradition of faith which we try to preserve, but I am arguing with a Greek who believes that keeping two calendars is normal. I will say it again... we cannot have one church if they are divided because of the calendar. It's an oxymoron.

As a convert of 11 years, I find it frustrating to deal with cradle Orthodox who talk about Orthodoxy in such a wish-washy way. A person who wants to learn about Orthodoxy would only get completely confused.

It's like say that an Orthodox person can get married with a protestant who doesn't get baptized. It's a Holy Mystery and no non-Orthodox can participate in any Holy Mystery without first being baptized. They can't even go to Holy Communion. But, I'm sure many Orthodoxy churches allow it...but it doesn't make it right. There has to be a clear cut stand about it. Otherwise, what is the point of converting if anything goes?

In Christ

Joanna