RTOC consecrated a Bishop for Serbian TOC

[Ephrem]

Bp Artemije has always had a n Orthodox confession of faith ( maybe not as zealous,as we'd like) but it was never ecumenistic or Sergianist! He stood up to NATO commanders and generals and forbade the vice president from entering Holy monasteries in Kosovo and Methohije.

Very admirable, but nonetheless, he remained in communion with the heretics. For one who remains in communion with the heretics it is not to their credit, but rather to their condemnation, that they should point out the heresy in their own church. He clearly knew about it for decades and opposed it, but was not willing to break with it. This is very sad, and I know that I would have done worse in his position. Nonetheless, we cannot direct people to him as if to a true confessor and Archpastor.

[Tryphon]

Did I forget to mention that for years already His grace has also been banned from entering Agion Oros from the "ecumenical Patriarch" due to His Orthodox Stand.
You are right that from heretics we need to separate, but at the same time what Heresy's were defacto practiced and excepted by the entire Patriarchate of Serbia,that He should have abandoned the Church and pious but un-Churched people?
You are also right when You state that You and I myself for sure would have done much worse!

[Ephrem]

In my worthless opinion, I think it would have done more for the Serbian faithful if he had separated completely and refused communion with any of the Patriarchates. It would have made him less popular with the moderates and with those in the New-Calendar and Ecumenist Churches, but he would have secured a foundation for his own salvation and that of others. It would have put the matter undeniably onto the conscience of those who remain in the Belgrade Patriarchate and in communion with any of the heretical church-like bodies.

What he is doing now puts nothing to anyone's conscience. He says, "I am not an ecumenist." What is there to this? So what? The average layman thinks only, "Bishop Artimije is not an ecumenist, what a good man!" Nonetheless, there is no imperative and no change. There is no urgent need to depart from communion with the heretics. His stance is really worse for true orthodoxy, because it gives conservatives within the patriarchates the ability to admire a zealot and his stance without having to admit that they are in the wrong place and, consequently, repent and leave it.

[Tryphon]

In my worthless opinion, I think it would have done more for the Serbian faithful if he had separated completely and refused communion with any of the Patriarchates. It would have made him less popular with the moderates and with those in the New-Calendar and Ecumenist Churches, but he would have secured a foundation for his own salvation and that of others. It would have put the matter undeniably onto the conscience of those who remain in the Belgrade Patriarchate and in communion with any of the heretical church-like bodies.

What he is doing now puts nothing to anyone's conscience. He says, "I am not an ecumenist." What is there to this? So what? The average layman thinks only, "Bishop Artimije is not an ecumenist, what a good man!" Nonetheless, there is no imperative and no change. There is no urgent need to depart from communion with the heretics. His stance is really worse for true orthodoxy, because it gives conservatives within the patriarchates the ability to admire a zealot and his stance without having to admit that they are in the wrong place and, consequently, repent and leave it.

Please keep in mind the time frame of events in Serbia the Last 20 years since the fall of communism. Its been war after war followed by refugees and sanctions and over taking holy Serbian land by western powers. At what time should of Bp Artemije separated from the SP? During NATO bombings that lasted 2 and a half months? During the Muhadgeens import into Kosovo and Methohje,where Thousands were tortured,killed and misplaced? Or at times of NATO inspired "peace" in 2004 When hundreds of Monasteries and Churches were burned and destroyed? Or went Kosovo and Methohije was being stolen from Serbia just a few years back? He was always on the Front lines confessing Orthodoxy and defending His people,He choose to lay His life down for Christs rational sheep. He taught His people faith thru deeds and sacrifice. Where would these people be or would they even still be Orthodox Christians today?

[Suaidan]

Please keep in mind the time frame of events in Serbia the Last 20 years since the fall of communism. Its been war after war followed by refugees and sanctions and over taking holy Serbian land by western powers. At what time should of Bp Artemije separated from the SP? During NATO bombings that lasted 2 and a half months? During the Muhadgeens import into Kosovo and Methohje,where Thousands were tortured,killed and misplaced?

As one who was sympathetic to the Serbs during the invasion all I can say is: what about before that? What about after that?

One can always find an excuse not to do the right thing if one looks. The fundamental question remains if there is ever a point to secede from your Synod on the basis of heresy or not. The question then simply becomes what is that point. Until that question is answered, our fundamental positions will color all our responses.

[Tryphon]

Please keep in mind the time frame of events in Serbia the Last 20 years since the fall of communism. Its been war after war followed by refugees and sanctions and over taking holy Serbian land by western powers. At what time should of Bp Artemije separated from the SP? During NATO bombings that lasted 2 and a half months? During the Muhadgeens import into Kosovo and Methohje,where Thousands were tortured,killed and misplaced?

As one who was sympathetic to the Serbs during the invasion all I can say is: what about before that? What about after that?

One can always find an excuse not to do the right thing if one looks. The fundamental question remains if there is ever a point to secede from your Synod on the basis of heresy or not. The question then simply becomes what is that point. Until that question is answered, our fundamental positions will color all our responses.

Let's look at it this way, Bishop Artemije was persecuted,mocked,and sold out by His fellow "Brother" Bishops in front of the entire Orthodox world,the ecumenist inclined could not deal with His humble long suffering and REFUSAL to jump ship,they in turn became so confused and enraged that they illegally tried to retire Him and try Him in a Spiritual court but with-out His participation and defense,in essence a kangaroo court. Now,the people pious belivers (who are the Church) took notice and refuse to depart from their Bishop.Every liturgy is more packed with belivers than the previous one. This my dear brother is Orthodoxy and a True Shepherd guiding souls towards the Master by the word of truth.

[Suaidan]

Please keep in mind the time frame of events in Serbia the Last 20 years since the fall of communism. Its been war after war followed by refugees and sanctions and over taking holy Serbian land by western powers. At what time should of Bp Artemije separated from the SP? During NATO bombings that lasted 2 and a half months? During the Muhadgeens import into Kosovo and Methohje,where Thousands were tortured,killed and misplaced?

As one who was sympathetic to the Serbs during the invasion all I can say is: what about before that? What about after that?

One can always find an excuse not to do the right thing if one looks. The fundamental question remains if there is ever a point to secede from your Synod on the basis of heresy or not. The question then simply becomes what is that point. Until that question is answered, our fundamental positions will color all our responses.

Let's look at it this way, Bishop Artemije was persecuted,mocked,and sold out by His fellow "Brother" Bishops in front of the entire Orthodox world,the ecumenist inclined could not deal with His humble long suffering and REFUSAL to jump ship,they in turn became so confused and enraged that they illegally tried to retire Him and try Him in a Spiritual court but with-out His participation and defense,in essence a kangaroo court. Now,the people pious belivers (who are the Church) took notice and refuse to depart from their Bishop.Every liturgy is more packed with belivers than the previous one. This my dear brother is Orthodoxy and a True Shepherd guiding souls towards the Master by the word of truth.

Very well, then! But the Serbian Synod (as all the other World Orthodox Synods) have said that such actions are "schismatic", dividing "the True Church"!

Is Bp Artemije willing to admit that when they said these things to US for so many years that he was wrong for not doing more to stop them, taking the step that in effect they have now forced him to take?

If not, why should we trust him?

Or do you believe that the Serbian Patriarchal Synod is the Church? If you do, why encourage disobedience and support a Bishop your Synod says is schismatic?

This is a simple matter of consistency, very simple-- it's a right and wrong in this scenario because of the actions of the SPS of which Bp Artemije was a part. Either we were right, or the SPS was right. If the former, he should come to us. If the latter, then he is acting in the manner of a schismatic.

One cannot have it both ways.