Mysterious OCA Metropolitan Enthroned

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joasia
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Re: Mysterious OCA Metropolitan Enthroned

Post by joasia »

Carmel,

There have been many discussions here about the OCA and other jurisdictions. The important factor is that we come to understand what is being done right and wrong in the Orthodox Church. Our guides are the holy fathers of the Holy Orthodox Church. In our times, since the 1900's, many events have happened, but we need to understand what they mean when remembering the teachings of the holy fathers (who preserved the teachings back down the line to the Apostles who were taught by Jesus Christ).

I see that you have a strong stance for the OCA. May I ask what it is that Orthodoxy means to you?

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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mtcarmel
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Re: Mysterious OCA Metropolitan Enthroned

Post by mtcarmel »

Re: Sergianist this and Sergianist that -- It seems now that ROCOR (or at least a portion of her/it?) has tossed in her/its chips upon having been received back into the mother church. I'm not sure how to word this so I'll try and say it clearly. Sergius is dead and so is the political system that used him to deconstruct the Russian Church at that time. Have I been so honored to have now fallen in with a few honorable zealots who left ROCOR because they felt/believed it had become modernized and Sergianized? Are you those (or of those)? And have the anti-Sergianist zealots fallen prey to an even larger historical force, marginalized by the now-rapid Surge of human events as God in Holy Trinity compels us on towards a meeting in the Parousia, the 2nd Coming of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ? In this context I much prefer being a Surgianist than Sergianist. It seems this Surgianism is that which we each should be concerned with. The old Sergianism is dead.

I have the sense than even the moderates among you may have been victimized by the historical strait-jacket. What is wrong with advocating for the OCA in those points where it falls into line with with Holy Tradition? Or the radition as it existed before 1917? Who was metropolitan of North America after Tikhon was called back to Moscow to preside over the martyrdom of the Holy Church in Russia? Tikhon worked, laboring in America before the Revolution. So you are now ready to deny and negate all he did?

The Metroplia existed long before ROCOR was granted legitimacy. +Anthony (Khrapovisky) was bishop over another region somewhere in Russia. And ROCOR meandered its way over to the metropolia land and now claims it as its own? You are stuck in the past. History has caught up to you and has passed you by. But it has for all of us.

mc

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joasia
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Re: Mysterious OCA Metropolitan Enthroned

Post by joasia »

What is wrong with advocating for the OCA in those points where it falls into line with with Holy Tradition?

Because they have only certain "points" that are Orthodox, but if the rest is to advocate ecumenism and false theology, then the whole should be considered wrong. You can't say that some of the OCA's views are Orthodox so why snub them.... because the rest isn't. That's a cop out. It's 100% or nothing!!! And you bring up St. Tikhon and say that these people of the OCA are his successors and therefore should be accepted. Why? They've chosen to preach their ecumenical garbage and therefore are not inheriters of the faith that St. Tikhon lived. They have broken away from that path. We don't negate St. Tikhon. We just don't accept imposters like the OCA and the MP.

The Jews of the Old Testament were the chosen ones and yet, lo and behold, their predessors fell away from the true faith and only upheld the outer look and what did Jesus say to them??? Hypocrites!!! Just because the Jews of the NT were descendents of the Jews of the OT doesn't make them right if they don't uphold the truth one hundred percent.

The holy saints of Holy Rus upheld Orthodoxy, 100%. The OCA has become their own head, like the Pope. Do you consider the Pope to have true faith as was preserved by the Orthodox Church just because he calls himself Christian??? You have to, since the OCA considers the Pope of equal status.

You consider us victims, but the unfortuate truth is that you people are blind. You can't recognize when there is something wrong.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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joasia
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Re: Mysterious OCA Metropolitan Enthroned

Post by joasia »

Correction: It should say successors, not predecessors.

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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Re: Mysterious OCA Metropolitan Enthroned

Post by Pravoslavnik »

Mt. Carmel,

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      Two questions, which I ask straightforwardly, not rhetorically.

1) I am fully aware that St. Tikhon served as the primate of the Orthodox Churches in America prior to his later ascension to the Patriarchate of Moscow. However, even as primate here in America-- where he did many good works on behalf of the Holy Church--was he not subordinate to the proper canonical administration of the Russian Orthodox Church, the main defender and patron of world Orthodoxy after the fall of Constantinople in 1453? Put differently, the Orthodox Church in America prior to the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 was not some sort of autcephalous "American" Church or "Metropolia," was it? It was always part of the Russian Orthodox Church.

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 What then became of the proper Russian Orthodox Church administration after 1917, and, by extension, of the American Orthodox Church which was subordinate to it?  This is why the issue of Sergianism is not some archane, academic issue which has ceased to have relevance in our day.  Do you really believe that the church administration of Metropolitan Sergius (and his NKVD controllers) in the Soviet Union WAS the true Russian Orthodox Church administration?  Or was the true Russian Orthodox Church administration after 1917--and its American jurisdiction-- something OTHER than the Soviet Sergianist hierarchy?  Certainly, St. John and the canonical hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church (in exile) did NOT view the Sergianist hierarchy as the proper administration of the Russian Orthodox Church-- and its American jurisdiction.   The rebellious hierarchs of the "Metropolia" in America disagreed with St. John and the ROCOR on this critical issue.  In my view, the Metropolia  thus entered under a false Russian Orthodox administration-- the Soviet pseudo-church-- long before they later sought autocephaly from the Sergianist hierarchs in 1970.  They not only betrayed their own flocks-- they turned their backs on the true Orthodox saints and confessors of the 20th century; St. John of San Francisco and St. Philaret.  I have known people from the OCA in the past who have scarcely even HEARD of St. John (Maximovitch.)

2) You mentioned that Sergianism is dead. When, in your opinion, did the Sergianist church administration of the Soviet Union ever cease to exist? When did it cease being a false church administration, a mere political tool of the Soviet and neo-Soviet states? The hierarchs of the current Moscow Patriarchate are almost all appointees and/or agents of the Soviet KGB and its agents within the Soviet state, including the new Patriarch Kyril (Gundayev.) These men have never really repented of their Sergianist betrayal of the true Church, or properly resigned their episcopal offices, which they acquired in violation of Church canons. Did they? Do we not have specific KGB code names for many of these men? When precisely do you imagine that the Moscow Patriarchate ceased being the Sergianist church administration established by the NKVD and KGB following the murder of St. Tikhon? Please clarify your perspective on this important issue. You obviously have more knowledge of American Orthodox Church history than I do, but seem to have a very different view of modern Russian Orthodox history.

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Re: Mysterious OCA Metropolitan Enthroned

Post by priestmark »

I don't answer questions from mysterious pseudonymous personalites. ("Mt Carmel")

Anyone wanting to fact check needs to invest the time to do their own searching. Google is widely available.

I will not do that work for you, but I will give you one clear-cut connection: "He formerly worked at Raphael House in San Francisco and the Valaam Society publishing mission "Russkiy Palomnik" in Moscow."

This should be sufficient for anyone who is aware of the activities of the Order. I won't attempt to relate my experiences with the Order in Indiana over the past 30 years or so in order to seek validity in your eyes. I am not here to convince, but to warn those who have ears to hear.

The above quote is from AGAIN magazine. "Hieromonk Jonah Paffhausen: The Doors of Repentance " Volume 23, No. 1, January-March, 2001. I hate to even reference it because of the way this supposed history makes no distinction between the demonic cult's dangerous soul-destroying activity, and the purported christian praxis of the CSB. This piece is a classic disinformation device. I guess he learned a few things about persuasion techniques in Russia.

o.Mark

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Re: Mysterious OCA Metropolitan Enthroned

Post by Pravoslavnik »

Here is a link to a reprint the aforementioned AGAIN magazine article by then- Hieromonk Jonah (Paffhausen):

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orthodoxia/message/1914

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I have heard surprisingly little over the years about this Order of MANS and the Christ the Savior Brotherhood.  It appears that the CSB was originally derived from the Order of MANS through their close involvement with former Abbot Herman (Podmoshensky) of Platina.  OCA Metropolitan Jonah also mentions at the end of this article that he had been very closely involved with the St. Herman's Monastery at Platina for twenty or so years.  He also worked for the MP in Moscow in some capacity as a publisher, and reportedly entered the Orthodox Church ? in an MP parish in San Diego.  At the same time, he reportedly started some sort of Orthodox society while in college at UC Santa Cruz...  It is unclear whether this was before or after his chrismation or baptism in San Diego, but I would assume that it was after??  It makes little sense to suppose that he was baptized into the Orthodox Church AFTER starting an Orthodox society in college, does it?
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