bedlam.
For those who wish to examine the "eldership question" in earnest, begin here:
http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 83&start=0
As for Dr. Moss, his ultramontane ecclesiology is heretical and his views reflect neither Patristic thought nor any rational understanding of Orthodox anthropology or eschatology. "renovationism from the right" this type of propaganda, "pseudodoxy" was once aptly called...
R
[As for Dr. Moss, his ultramontane ecclesiology is heretical and his views reflect neither Patristic thought nor any rational understanding of Orthodox anthropology or eschatology. "renovationism from the right" this type of propaganda, "pseudodoxy" was once aptly called...
R[/quote]
You have got me now. Vladimir Moss's ecclesiology "ultra-montane"? I can understand someone wrongly however accusing ROCOR under Vitaly or the "Matthewites" of that, but Vladimir Moss? Where has he said in the last 10 years that even the "Synod of Resistance" lack the Grace of the Sacraments and so are outside of the Church? He could be called a liberbal by some. His ecclesiology-http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/The%20Church.htm is utterly unpapist.
"Renovationism from the Right" refers to renovationists such as HOCNA, Gregory of Colorado and Grigory Lurie who claim to be Traditionalists while they are infact distorting the Faith however much they are correct about Ecumenism,etc. Dr Moss considers belief in "theistic evolution" to be heresy and has written wonderfully aganist false views of the Dogma of Redemption. He cannot be a "renovationist from the right" therefore.
What are you refering to when you speak of him holding absurd views on Orthodox anthropology and eschatology?
Theophan.
The romanitas site documents his views...
A). ultramontane in that he unilaterally declares several local churches "heretical" on the basis HIS application of this or that canon or this or that LOCAL anathema. He has no conception of conciliarity...hence, his heretical ULTRAMONTANE ecclesiology.
B). anyone with the brass to take Saints like St. Ignatios out of context--WHO SUPPORTED THE OPTINA ELDERS OF HIS ERA AND WAS HIMSELF AN "ELDER"--to argue that eldership as an institution with its accompanying gifts/conciliations has passed and that there are are only "false elders" in our day is the same type of person who argues that the "mystical tradition" of Orthodoxy is a platonist import and a corruption of the Apostolic faith, that theosis, the office of prophet, elder, saint are the products of a neo-gnostic synthesis of Orthodoxy with error. His patent rejection of Orthodox anthropology, how we are called to perfection in Christ Jesus and how our lives are barometers of defeat and/or success in that struggle, that there are gifts of grace which result and how that charisma is INSEPARABLE FROM THE CHURCH FOR IT IS THE TRADITION, shows that there is a lack of interest and/or real grasp of what Orthodoxy really is. His aproach is not concerned with the Patristic witness, but rather skewing a legal code to a personal agenda, "renovationism from the right."
C). His views on the end times and antichrist are nothing more than agenda (hate) speaking in Orthodoxy's name, hence rejection of his eschatology as political platform...
I would be the last to call Dr. Moss "liberal," but the first to say he could serve the Church better by scrapping what he puts forward at this time to pursue a thorough Orthodox education in either Thessaloniki or Belgrade. For at this time, there is nothing but "pseudodoxy" and things which are only tangentially Orthodox, in the sense of controversies needing resolution or Western Orthodox heritage, in what he puts forward. A waste...
R
Firstly, Vladimir Moss is NOT filled hate. I have spent long periods in his company. I am a member of his parish. I know what the other parish members think about him, of whom a lot are very ordinary english people who were attracted to Orthodoxy by the love and obvious presence of God in St Michael's parish. You might not agree with him but he is NOT filled with hate. Please stop saying that he is.
Theophan.
Anyone venturing on to his site, romanitas, looking at what he writes there with a donatist-ultamontanist-montanist filter understands what I mean when I say "hate." It is an accurate description of how he would divide the Church if he could...bedlam.
R
Well when I was still in the MP I remember several Roman Catholics accusing me of hate for being aganist false union with Rome and her heresies. Would you consider that hate? Of course I have now come to realise that the MP is a fake church too. And now the World Orthodox are accusing me of hate....
Can you all come up with better arguments than that? Oh yes and calling some "extreme" is just as silly. Some could even say your posts reek anger...I know that some of mine have aswell. So lets not be so judgemental?
Theophan.
heretical reasoning in condemning Canonical churches/clergy and Orthodox faithful IS NOT love--it is hate...For starters:
1). donatism.
2). montanism.
3). ultra-montanism.
Blended with a strange brew which smacks of "replacement theology." ALL HERETICAL ways of thought used in jusgement of the Church...hate. Moreover, utter bedlam.
R
