Not-formaly declared heretic Non-Orthodox influenced Icons

Justin Kissel · Post by **Justin Kissel** » Sun 24 October 2004 7:59 am

How can you say that an Incorporeal being has "a materiality"?
Yes, an Angel can only be either in Heaven or not, but this doesn't mean they have a body.

I think what he was getting at is the patristic notion that while angels are generally said to be immaterial, only God is uncreated, and therefore only God can (properly speaking) be said to be totally and wholly without material/matter. Put another way, even though angels are far beyond us in regards to immateriality, and even though we commonly think of them as being without matter or a body, they nonetheless have "a materiality" when compared to God, Who alone is uncreated, immaterial, eternal by nature, etc.

An angel, then, is an intelligent essence, in perpetual motion, with free-will, incorporeal, ministering to God, having obtained by grace an immortal nature: and the Creator alone knows the form and limitation of its essence. But all that we can understand is, that it is incorporeal and immaterial. For all that is compared with God Who alone is incomparable, we find to be dense and material. For in reality only the Deity is immaterial and incorporeal. - St. John of Damascus, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, 2,3

George Australia · Post by **George Australia** » Sun 24 October 2004 8:17 am

Justin Kissel wrote:
I think what he was getting at is the patristic notion that while angels are generally said to be immaterial, only God is uncreated, and therefore only God can (properly speaking) be said to be totally and wholly without material/matter. Put another way, even though angels are far beyond us in regards to immateriality, and even though we commonly think of them as being without matter or a body, they nonetheless have "a materiality" when compared to God, Who alone is uncreated, immaterial, eternal by nature, etc.

Justin,
Would you agree that this "materiality" is, at best, figurative? At any rate, this is not the reason we can dipyct Angels in Icons as Paul Azkoul suggests. We can dipyct Angels because God in His Condescension has allowed us to see them in bodily form. God does not require "materiality" in order to make the invisible visible. Even Paul agrees that Abraham at least saw Christ- did the pre-incarnate Christ take on a "materiality" so that He could be seen? Perish the thought!

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Sun 24 October 2004 12:44 pm

George Australia wrote:
... the reason we can dipyct Angels in Icons as Paul Azkoul suggests.

Is because a bunch of old men years ago decided that you could and you choose to live by the rules these men made up.

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Sun 24 October 2004 1:40 pm

Tom,

Many of your comments sound quite un-Orthodox.

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Sun 24 October 2004 2:17 pm

Natasha wrote:
Tom,

Many of your comments sound quite un-Orthodox.

Yes, they do - only if you see Orthodoxy as a set of "rules" that must be strictly adhered to in order to be included in their version of Christianity.
Rules, that I must remind you, were created by sinful men.

The Traditional Orthodox, I feel, make the same mistakes that all fundamentalist religions make -- they get confused in that they think strictness = Godliness.

Jesus came to release us from the yoke of the rigid Jewish law and the judgemental Pharisees. Do you think he did that in order to replace it with another one?

The Gospels are all about REBELLING against the old men and their silly "rules" that keep us focused on the "rituals" and "legalistic" application instead of on LIVING internally with the Savior.

Anastasios · Post by **Anastasios** » Sun 24 October 2004 2:43 pm

The problem is, Tom, that the Church instituted these guidelines based on her experience of hundreds and now thousands of years of what works and what doesn't. Your 40-50 years' experience is nothing compared to the Church's wisdom, which comes not from sinful men but from Holy Men who lived in Christ. You are proof that that which you attack is correct; for the people who follow the Orthodox faith with complete devotion are free from the troubles of the soul and the uncertainty of disbelief, while you appear to be a slave to the winds of trendiness, the "newest" scholarly approach, the whims of your emotions, etc.

Tom, your approach is not going to lead to truth because by constantly judging all the sources, you are in effect making yourself the judge and putting yourself in a position of superiority over the sources, whereas the proper approach should be to approach the sources with fear and trembling and ask the Lord Jesus to enlighten your mind.

Anastasios

George Australia · Post by **George Australia** » Sun 24 October 2004 6:22 pm

TomS wrote:
a bunch of old men years ago decided that you could and you choose to live by the rules these men made up.

Then why don't we throw out the Gospels and Epistles as well? Holy Tradition pre-dates these, so if we are going to reject Tradition, we must reject what came after it.