Change in ROCOR?

[Seraphim Reeves]

While it is true that St.Paul said he tried to be "all things to all men" so that some might be saved (1st Corinthians 9:22), this has to be understood as being within limits - for the same Apostle clearly deliniates between heresy/schism and Orthodoxy, let alone Orthodoxy and outright infidelity/paganism.

Unfortunately, the leadership in "world Orthodoxy" has an ongoing habit of being "all things" in a false way, which does not recognize ecclessial/dogmatic limits. Thus, to those people in the GOA, OCA, Antiochians, etc., of a more "traditionalist" bend in their own personal beliefs, accomodations are often (though not always - there have to be enough of them to pose a problem) made for them to varying degrees. However, this same leadership involves itself in activities that have always been prohited (and for very serious reasons), not to mention the bad statements of "common faith" they join themselves to with the heterodox.

As such, the type of "traditionalism" they're willing to entertain is all form, but no content - it's salt missing it's flavour, and selectively applied salt at that.

This, perhaps more than their overt canonical violations, or outright blasphemies, is what is most deceptive at all - for without this deception, they would not be able to keep in their grasp those more faint hearted, but otherwise right believing persons, who more or less believe all the "right things", but for whatever reason do not want to make the necessary break with heretics that their salvation demands.

(Bartholomew with Turkish Imam - a fraternal kiss)

Seraphim

[away]

This is a very interesting thread.

I am tempted to begin attending a GOC Church about an hours drive away instead of the Serbian Church I normally attend because I am concerned about the question of heresy and I didnt realise how bad it was until I found this site.

I love to read books that come out of new calendar Churches, and what is the deal with Elder Paisios? I have his book of epistles and it is really wonderful, I cannot imagine that this man was without Grace. Does anyone really think he was not within the Church? And the Metropolitan's books are clearly very good and very faithful to Patristic theology and the teachings of the Holy Fathers. I dont know what I would have done without these resources. And I know that some of the ROCOR priests near me that are quite popular and considered great spiritual fathers are actually preaching modern psychotherapy and trying to use it to help people with thier spiritual lives. This makes me very sad and even angry, I cant belive they would be so stupid, and think they are so traditional.

But thats not the whole story is it? The Church is a mystery, the Body of Christ. How do we remain within the Church or know if we are outside of her? This is the cross we have to carry today, it is very big and difficult, mind-bending, scary.

But when I see those pictures, and read those words about brotherhood and unity with atheist budhists and infalible men, I really get a bad feeling and I dont want to be involved with any of these guys, ever.

What scares me is the point that OOD makes about how there doesnt have to be a union. There doesnt have to be a new, unified church, they just have to agree that none of them have the whole truth.

Im going to check this GOC Church out. Some one tells me they are fanatics and extremists, but those words are so meaningless now. My friends think I am an extremist because I dont want to see violent movies, and a fanatic because I adjust my thinking when I find it doesnt agree with the Patristic witness. So im just going to keep being those things and hopefully the Lord will help me repent and Love people and show me the best Church to go to. I think it is near the end of the world.

Make God enlighten us all and teach us the Truth.

I dont like to be so negative, and I dont have a stance, as such, Im hoping to get some clearer answers and I am open-minded and wanting to avoid error.

[Gregory2]

It's important to understand that ecumenism at its heart has as a fundamental principle that no one group has the Truth, but collectively we all contribute something and as a whole make up the Truth. This is a cornerstone of protestantism, and is the reason why Anglicans and Lutherans and Methodists can live alongside eachother happily divided.

We Orthodox don't believe this. If we did, then we would think that the Baptist Church, the Anglican Church, etc. would have something to teach us about the Truth of Christ and the fullness of the faith.

I used to think that ecumenism was beneficial, since it exposes non-Orthodox to the Truth of Orthodoxy (as I used to incorrectly think), but I've learned. I echo OOD's sentiments above -- has there really been a substantial convert movement as a result of ecumenism? On the contrary, I think it sends the message to the world that Orthodoxy is just one of many ways to approach God, like any other protestant denomination, not the Truth in its fullness!

You have to have your head buried far in the sand to not know that Orthodoxy exists -- the argument that we need to engage in ecumenism in order to expose others to Orthodoxy is a very weak argument!

[Mor Ephrem]

You have to have your head buried far in the sand to not know that Orthodoxy exists -- the argument that we need to engage in ecumenism in order to expose others to Orthodoxy is a very weak argument!

While I think you have a point that ecumenism is not necessary in order to expose others to Orthodoxy, I think it is very naive to suggest that most people are familiar with Orthodoxy, and that those who aren't have their heads in the sand. First off, those who are familiar with Orthodoxy are probably familiar with "world Orthodoxy", and according to the vast majority of posters on this site (although not me), that's not even Orthodoxy (never mind the fact that when you tell someone you're Orthodox, many people are more inclined to think you're a Jew rather than a Christian, and other such strange-but-true anecdotes). Second, and much more importantly, Orthodox in general do a poor job at evangelising, and this is scandalous.

[rebecca]

Thank you, Fr. Mark. The article you posted was very helpful.

Edit: Uh, I suppose I should have posted this comment on the other thread, but these two topics are so similar, I got kinda confused.

[Lounger]

Some time ago Deacon Basil from Australia posted an interview of Bishop Kyrill in 1999, where Bishop espressed a proper attitude towards Mpscow Patriarchate. Then suddanly Father Alexander Lebedev sent out the following:

---

His Grace, Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America has directed me to address the lists where Protodeacon Basil Yakimov had posted an essay that Bishop Kyrill had written four years ago, concerning the Moscow Patriarchate.

Bishop Kyrill wishes to let it be known that this essay does not at all reflect his current thinking, and that he has formally rescinded that previous statement. He also has expressed his will, as he had already done in the past, that his previous essay be withdrawn and not be republished in any forum.

Bishop Kyrill is especially concerned that the post of the essay to the internet forums by Protodeacon Basil Yakimov, at its end, stated that it was "reprinted by permission from the author," which is an absolute falsehood.

Bishop Kyrill will address the issue of Protodeacon Basil Yakimov's action with Fr. Basil's Ruling Bishop, His Grace, Archbishop Hilarion.

Bishop Kyrill has also directed that his interview of September 27, 2003, where he expresses his views clearly and unequivocally, be reposted to the lists where Protodeacon Basil Yakimov's posts appeared.

With love in Christ,

Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
Dean of the Southern Deanery of the Western American Diocese

[Lounger]

Thank you, Fr. Mark. The article you posted was very helpful.

Edit: Uh, I suppose I should have posted this comment on the other thread, but these two topics are so similar, I got kinda confused.

Which thread? Can you link me please?