Does the MP Have Grace?

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Justin,

Could you refresh my poor memory on which statement that was?

[ania]

I would appreciate it if you could provide the links where you showed the ROCOR never broke communion with the Serbs. For whatever reason, I never saw them.
And I don't mean examples where they simply served together like the recent "unsanctioned" concelebration with the EP. Like this shows, there are always people who will do whatever they want. It is well known the official position of the ROCOR after December 15, 1965 was not to serve with the Serbs. If you have something to the contrary I would like to see it..

As far as proof... well I can tell you what I've seen with my own eyes. I grew up in Jordanville, where, before & after Met. Vitaly left ROCOR I saw visiting Serbian priests serve, not with just Vl. Lavr, but also with other bishops. Prime example is the funeral of Bishop Anthony of San Francisco, where Fr. Lazar Kostur (graduate of Holy Trinity Seminary, circa 1967), nastayatel of a Serbian cathedral in Chicago, served along side our bishops & priests. Most recently Fr. Lazar served in Jordanville not more than 3 weeks ago, on the occasion of Met. Lavr's namesday. Met. Lavr, whatever you might say about him, is a stickler for the rules. You might say he made an exception for an old student, http://www.fatheralexander.org/gallery/ ... 003_10.htm (Fr. Lazar is to Vladika's right), but then you have to take into account the fact that Vladika Lavr also sent his 2 personal subdeacons, John Drobot & Nicholas Petroff, to help (and serve with) Pat. Pavel when he was here a few years ago. (I was there, not only to see them serve, but to see them be the first in line for communion). Oh, just found another picture of Fr. Lazar, http://www.fatheralexander.org/gallery/ ... 2003_6.htm he's the priest on the right carrying the icon of St. Job of Pachaev with Fr. George Shaffer. As there were 8 bishops present at this particular event, you can hardly say it's "unsanctioned." As for docs regarding them serving together, give me a few days, & I'll dig some up. Remind me though, I'm rather absent-minded, & once I leave work, since I don't have internet at home, I usually forget all about what goes on at work.

As far as flying to Russia to "see" Grace - do you mean without any instrumentation whatsoever?

So you think the Grace of Christ's Church is bound to how "Orthodox" someone looks and acts outwardly, or how it makes you feel inside? I guess then the Nestorians are syncretistically Orthodox too, and the Donatist's would then be even more "Orthodox" than the Orthodox!

Forgive me for saying this, but this is sentimentalism. And I think allot of people think this way, at least you admit it.

If the MP is truly repented, then they will be Ordained to the priesthood.

I'm not saying "see" it, I'm saying go & talk to the clergy over there. Trust me, I've seen enough priests, clergy, etc who look & act Orthodox but turn out to be the biggest ....... never minds you've ever met. & those guys are in ROCOR. I know what real Orthodoxy looks like, as I grew up near Jordanville, going to confession to some of the founding members of the monastary. I've served tea to any number of bishops at our dinning room table (the old bishops, as well as the new), and got a chance to observe them "in action" so to speak. When I went to Russia, I saw quite a lot of the same in clergy & monks in the MP. Strangely enough, it's harder & harder to find clergy the measures up to the standards of old ROCOR in ROCOR itself anymore.

If the MP is truly repented, then they will be Ordained to the priesthood.

Gonna leave that, as it makes absolutely no sence...
Oh, and as for me being sentimental, sure, I admit it, I like Hallmark cards & Christmas carols as much as the next person. What I am, however toward the church, ROCOR, in particular, is nastalgic. When the question wasn't, who has grace & who doesn't, the question was, when the communist yoke falls, what will we do to help our brothers & sisters?

Anyway, long ramble, sorry if doesn't make sense... lots of work still due to that stupid hurricane... today our internet connection & phonelines went down fo 3 hours because a tree fell down. Now that it's back up, I should be catching up, rather than reading the forum.
Ania
Ania

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Ania,

Those are some very nice pictures, thank you.

I grew up in Jordanville, where, before & after Met. Vitaly left ROCOR I saw visiting Serbian priests serve, not with just Vl. Lavr, but also with other bishops. Prime example is the funeral of Bishop Anthony of San Francisco, where Fr. Lazar Kostur (graduate of Holy Trinity Seminary, circa 1967), nastayatel of a Serbian cathedral in Chicago, served along side our bishops & priests. Most recently Fr. Lazar served in Jordanville not more than 3 weeks ago, on the occasion of Met. Lavr's namesday. Met. Lavr, whatever you might say about him, is a stickler for the rules. You might say he made an exception for an old student,

I don't dispute that has been happening with increasing frequency, which will likely culminate with a union with the MP in my lifetime. I am just saying the ROCOR stopped communing officially with the Serbs in 1965, and for many years which followed.

If I may ask, what years are you familiar with at Jordanville?

EDIT: I also noticed in those pictures the bishops crowns did not have crosses on top - In Greek practice, the only crown with no cross on top is Christs, because Christ wears the "Emperor's" crown. I always thought the Russians were the same - add that to the list of differences I guess.

[Justin Kissel]

OOD,

Could you refresh my poor memory on which statement that was?

Sure It was this one:

We believe and confess that in those churches of the Patriarchate of Moscow where the priest fervently believes and sincerely prays, showing himself to be not only a "minister of the cult", but also a good shepherd who loves his sheep, to those who approach him with faith, the grace of salvation is accessible in the mysteries. Such churches are few in number on the immense territory of the Russian land.

The churches of the catacomb Christians, our brethren, in which the divine services are celebrated by priests who have preserved canonical succession from those who received the crown of martyrdom, the true archpastors of the Church, are even fewer in number and inaccessible to the vast mass of believers. - Source (Emphasis mine)

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Justin,

My reaction is that it is not proper for me to speculate beyond that which the Church instructs, and the Church instructs that heretics and those in communion with them are not in Church.

Such speculating as this leads to ambiguity, and ambiguity leads Christ's flock to disaster because men are weak-minded and foolish.

If any such condition exists in the MP, it is for Christ to know and Him alone. Because it was He who gave us clear and precise instructions to follow. Christ did not ask us to speculate about the existence of His Church in the realm of falsehoods of His persecutors, but rather, He told us to separate ourselves from them and stand fast.

Yes, my heart goes out to all people, especially those who were robbed of their inheretence by these wolves, and those who are caught unaware, but this love and hope is bound and properly placed by the Church.

As I have said before, the Presence and grace of Christ is not decided on by men, but it either exists or it doesn't. So what possible good can come from a statement such as this? All you accomplish is a softening, a relaxation. When a member of the MP hears such a thing, will they still earnestly seek a true bishop, or feel much more comfortable receiving communion from a KGB agent?

Bishops are pastors tending Christ's flock, and I see nothing that can be gained pastorially by such statements.

[Justin Kissel]

OOD,

Do you know what the response was back in 1990 (or later) to this statement? Both from Bps. Valentine and Gregory, and conservative people such as Fr. Dionysi, or from your own group? Seems like if ROCOR said the same thing today it'd be looked at as another proof that they were either apostasizing, or had already fallen.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

I don't know officially, but I would feel comfortable saying that they felt as do I, that such a declaration is wrong and against the entire patristic witness.

I think it would be hard for anyone to over-react to such a statement. It has clear and dreadful implications.

I ask, why is it important to say such things?