ROCOR and Moscow Reunification [sic]

[mtcarmel]

If this group is as insidious as you imply I would say that the self-retired metropolitan was treated rather well as he was allowed to live out his days in relative peace in the beauty of the Canadian wilderness. This sort of peace and quiet would not have been tolerated under Stalin. So my conclusion is this: It seems these KGBskis -- or formerly so -- have taken a few steps down the ladder from the sorts of violent gangsterism that was practiced under a naked Soviet regime.

What might be a more healthy Christian response by your brothers and sisters in resistance? If you have not the power to forgive others as Christ Who was crucified forgave from the Cross then you have misplaced your practical X-ian faith and are holed up in a fortress mentality like timid turtles in a shell.

I don't mean to offend. I spoke because you asked.

elias

PS-- Blessed Feast of the Holy Prophet Elias to those on the Julian Calendar.

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Mt. Carmel,
Would you do me the courtesy of answering one simple question related to this thread? It seems trivial, but may have important ecclesiological implications.

What do you make of a church hierarchy/administration/staff that would physically abduct an elderly "retired" Metropolitan-- forcing him into a car against his will, and attempting to transport him to another country, even pursuing legal guardianship of him in a case that went to the New York Supreme Court?

[Pravoslavnik]

Mt. Carmel,

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  With all due respect, I'm beginning to think that your moniker should be the "Artful Dodger."

  If Metropolitan Vitaly (Ustinov) was able to spend his final days in peace, it was certainly in SPITE of, rather than BECAUSE of, the repeated efforts of the KGB/ MP-ROCOR to forcibly kidnap him and obtain involuntary guardianship over him.

  You mentioned that you did, in fact, see the disturbing photographs on the internet of the elderly Metropolitan being wrestled into a car by several MP-ROCOR hierarchs and thugs.

   Again, the question I asked is, "What do you make of church hierarchs who would behave in this manner toward an elderly Metropolitan who was declared "competent' by a Canadian psychiatrist at the time?"  Does their behavior cause you to question in any way the legitimacy of this MP-ROCOR "church" administration?  Is their conduct what you would expect of true Orthodox Church hierarchs, historically?  Or does it remind you more of the modus operandi of the KGB?

[mtcarmel]

I recall seeing the photos online. Though I do not recall being "disturbed". It seemed more of a curiosity to me at the time. A family feud. I didn't really have an overall context for what the photos depicted. As you know people can take images and interpret them as they wish. The context as I understood it at the time was that Vitaly had retired, his housekeeper was taking money from him, and the ROCE took him to Canada as a figurehead in order to continue operating ROCOR as had been done up to that point.

Did or didn't Met Vitaly first retire voluntarily?

From Wikipedia:

In 1955, Bishop Vitaly with his brotherhood was transferred to Edmonton, Canada. 75 miles from the city, he erected the Dormition monastery.

He was appointed ruling bishop of Montreal and Canada, Bishop Vitaly erected a monastery (skete) in Mansonville, Quebec. In Montreal, Bishop Vitaly built and magnificently equipped a large cathedral. The fine house of his(its) monastic farmstead and a residence is near to a cathedral. In this farmstead, a printing house operated, publishing service-books and the periodical "The Orthodox Bulletin". The death of Metropolitan Filaret in 1985 necessitated the election of a new Metropolitan. On 22 January 1986, Vitaly was elected Metropolitan of Eastern America and New York, also retaining management of the Canadian diocese.

Citing his declining health in 2001 metropolitan Vitaly announced that he was going to retire the same year. However, after realizing that the remaining bishops and specifically archbishop Laurus (who was the likely successor) are not willing to continue the historical course of ROCOR, Metropolitan Vitaly refused to retire. However, the bishops conducted an illegal council session (illegal for it cannot be called without the participation of the First Hierach - Metropolitan Vitaly, according to the Rules of ROCOR) where they elected the new head - so called "Metropolitan" Laurus. Following his "election" the latter soon began to fulfill his agenda by submitting the free ROCOR to the rule of Kremlin.

Following the council of Bishops of 2001 and the unlawful election of the New First Hierarch], Official History of the Council, ROCOR Official Web site, February 23, 2008</ref>[1] Metropolitan Virtaly releases an epistle to call all the faithful to keep their faith and follow the path of confessing their faith. [2], and went on to continue being the head of ROCOR, however in order to differentiate from the bishops who led a big part of ROCOR into a schism, it has been decided to call the remaining flock the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile, which in fact is the true ROCOR for its member haven't created anything new as opposed to those who have replaced Metropolitan Vitaly and went on to unite with Moscow Patriarchate, which was created by the Soviet dictator Josef Stalin in 1943. Metropolitan Vitaly spent the last years of the life in the Transfiguration monastery in Mansonville, where he officiated at services and received visitors.

elias

you asked:

"What do you make of church hierarchs who would behave in this manner toward an elderly Metropolitan who was declared "competent' by a Canadian psychiatrist at the time?" Does their behavior cause you to question in any way the legitimacy of this MP-ROCOR "church" administration? Is their conduct what you would expect of true Orthodox Church hierarchs, historically? Or does it remind you more of the modus operandi of the KGB

[Catherine5]

Watch out, New York region!

The St Seraphim Church in Sea Cliff, NY is being frescoed to memorialize the pair of perpetrators of the MP takeover of independent ROCOR, Alexey and Met Laurus. Also included will be the former rector of the church Bishop Mitrophan, who, though respected by many, was as well suspected of being a possible MP agent of influence.

So again St Seraphim, as with the question over the authenticity of his "relics" enshrined in Diveyevo, near Nizhny Novgorod, Russia, is possibly being used as a front for all this unity "feel-good" propaganda.

Fr Sergey Klestov used to be the priest of that Long Island church - before this very Met Laurus evicted him for opposing this same union which is now to be showcased for 'worship'. The real targets, of course, are the high-ranking MP and Russian officials visiting the East Coast. By regularly taking them there to show this off, ROCOR-H officials will be assuring the powers that be of their continuing loyalty and filial devotion to the current regime in Mother Russia.

Though the details of Fr Sergey's ouster are not generally known even by TOC people, the fact is that the Laurean campaign to remove a fearless and influential opponent, Fr Sergey, was conducted cruelly on the lowest level via a ludicrous but stinging slander.

So to me the current ROCOR project is a clear case of the devil taking over a former bastion of light during Fr Klestov's tenure.

A priest who knows Fr Sergey perhaps the best says he is like a saint, for even under all this pressure, he stoically bore the harsh treatment and jeering from peers.
I believe this is the sort of priest badly needed by today's TOCs!
Wise, spiritually mature, and due to having endured such a crucible, emerged with very sharp discernment.

You can go back to your discussion, you two, just wanted to mention this while it's fresh off the Pravda ROCOR-H site.
Happy Namesday, to you, Elias, on Sunday!
By the way, do you think this might be yet one more example of the same pattern mentioned regarding the abduction of the aged Met Vitaly? Both seem to have been clumsy, heavy-handed operations by ROCOR Central to discredit critics of the Neu Ostpolitik and make the coast clear!

[mtcarmel]

Thx for the greeting, Kate.

I mentioned to my NC American priest earlier Sunday (Aug 2) morning that it was the Russian feastday of Pro Elias. When I went to venerate the cross following liturgy he said "Spradznikom"

How did you get that picture on your profile? I sense a conspiracy.

Even in the days when ROCOR was on the same page things were done clumsily at times. Who can forget Holy Transifuration in Boston? Or the "monks" in Blanco, TX?

elias

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Happy Namesday, to you, Elias, on Sunday!

By the way, do you think this might be yet one more example of the same pattern mentioned regarding the abduction of the aged Met Vitaly? Both seem to have been clumsy, heavy-handed operations by ROCOR Central to discredit critics of the Neu Ostpolitik and make the coast clear!

[Pravoslavnik]

Mt Carmel/ Elias wrote:

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[i]I recall seeing the photos online. Though I do not recall being "disturbed". It seemed more of a curiosity to me at the time. A family feud. I didn't really have an overall context for what the photos depicted. As you know people can take images and interpret them as they wish. The context as I understood it at the time was that Vitaly had retired, his housekeeper was taking money from him, and the ROCE took him to Canada as a figurehead in order to continue operating ROCOR as had been done up to that point.[/i][/color]


    A glib answer by "Elias" to an honest question.  For those who did not see the many photos of the abduction of elderly Metropolitan Vitaly (Ustinov) by the MP-ROCOR, the hierarch was forcibly dragged into the back seat of a vehicle by several men dressed in black, while several MP-ROCOR clergy and at least one hierarch (MP-ROCOR Bishop Michael) supervised the whole ordeal.  Bishop Gabriel later petitioned the New York Supreme Court for involuntary guardianship of Metropolitan Vitaly, and lost his case.

  There were also photos posted on the internet some time ago showing several MP-ROCOR hierarchs--including Bishops Kyril and Gabriel-- trying to detain Metropolitan Vitaly at the New York headquarters of the ROCOR prior to his later abduction in Canada.  In New York, a parishioner had called the local police, and--with the support of the NYPD and some ROCOR parishioners-- the elderly Metropolitan was able to leave MP-ROCOR headquarters and return to Canada.

   I will give Elias the benefit of the doubt here, and attribute his misinterpretation of these events in recent ROCOR history to simple ignorance rather to frank dishonesty.  (Although, it is difficult to imagine that any decent person would not have been "distrubed" by the photos of the kidnapping of Metropolitan Vitaly.  As a ROCOR parishioner, I was shocked and outraged when I first saw these photos of our frail former first hierarch being mugged by those thugs.)

[Catherine5]

Prav, do you have URLs for us to look at to check out those two situations?
I never saw either of them, though of course everyone heard about the kidnapping attempt and could imagine it.

elias of Mt Carmel,
do you mean how I got the avatar on? It was due to the kind assistance of Fr Anastasios, the Administrator.
or do you mean where i got it originally?

What's the conspiracy/!

Best Wishes during this holy month of Feast Days,
Katie

Oh, I almost forgot!
With St Herman's Day coming up THIS Sunday, I received news regarding St Herman Monastery AND Alaska!
The abbot, Archimandrite Gerasim - I guess he was elevated from Abbot - is going up to Alaska very shortly -- as the OCA's new Auxiliary Bishop, replacing the tempestuous Bp Nikolai [Soraich]. Fr Gerasim was the spiritual son of Met Jonah, so this move comes as little surprise. Apparently Fr Gerasim had originally pushed for the Brotherhood to go with the OCA, but many monastics threatened to walk out. So the Serbian Church became their new home.
He was slated for Dallas, but was not accepted by the Ruling Bishop Dmitri there, news reports say.

The Platina Brotherhood is due to elect a new Abbot.
--Hope it's not the high-profile Fr Damascene, who recently was reported to have been working overtime to convince a poor layman to accept the beauties of .... ready for this?
Not monasticism, not the Russian Church, not the Serbian Saints, but : Sergianism!!