Moderator: Mark Templet
Sigh!
There is no point in arguing, there is none so blind as those that will not see.
A number of living and reposed personages in your above two statements have axes to grind, very old politics to play, pride to follow and people to manipulate (and blank bits of paper to sign).
But no names no packdrill, as my old Colour Serjeant used to say.
I am in the Church, as I am sure you and Cyprian are, but in a sick part of it.
Pray for me as I pray for you both
In Him
SB
"The Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian adheres wholly to the exact same ecclesiological and dogmatic principles as our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia,"
GOCTheophan wrote:Look im hardly a liberal BUT read what he has written more carefully. Go through that magazine.
I believe that Deacon Nicolai has had some contact with him. Maybe he can clear things up.
Theophan.
Actually, we consider each other friends, so if you like, I could ask him to come here and comment, although that is no guarantee that he will. 
benjaminw1 wrote:Sigh!
There is no point in arguing, there is none so blind as those that will not see.
A number of living and reposed personages in your above two statements have axes to grind, very old politics to play, pride to follow and people to manipulate (and blank bits of paper to sign).
But no names no packdrill, as my old Colour Serjeant used to say.
I am in the Church, as I am sure you and Cyprian are, but in a sick part of it.
Pray for me as I pray for you both
In Him
SB
Forget who actually wrote it.
The historical and theological explanation is what is important. And it is irrefutable.
The fact is that Metropolitian Vitaly was not senile and that he escaped the manipulation and sinister carry on at Madison Avenue. I have talked to people who were in Mansonville, or who talked to him on the phone there and I trust them (one is a senior Russian Prince). That however is besides the point.
Both the 7th Ecumenical Council and 15 th canon of the first and second Council of Constantinople which Metropolitian Kyprian bases himself on refute his novelities.
You have also offered no defense of the canonical basis of your Synod and as you yourself said "schism is worse than heresy".
Theophan.
GOCTheophan wrote:(I am not sure that ROAC is schismatic)
Dear Theophan:
I agree with many of your points, but I have noticed that you before were much more benign toward ROAC. Truly, I don't care too much that that you and others say about ROAC, but how many ones know it is one of the most canonical TOC, I think that its origin is the most canonical among the Russian jurisdictions (I am not the only one who say it, V. Moss has said it, et al and recently a secretary in USA for ROCOR-Agafangel). However in the Church there are sinner men.
But my question is If ROAC is schismatic, then your Priest and Spiritual Father was baptized, tonsure a monk and ordered a priest by a Schismatic "church" or rather is schismatic the origin and foundation of your parish?.
As much you as me know that for its origin, ROAC is much more canonical that anyone of the other Russian TOC.
GOCTheophan wrote:benjaminw1 wrote:Sigh!
There is no point in arguing, there is none so blind as those that will not see.
A number of living and reposed personages in your above two statements have axes to grind, very old politics to play, pride to follow and people to manipulate (and blank bits of paper to sign).
But no names no packdrill, as my old Colour Serjeant used to say.
I am in the Church, as I am sure you and Cyprian are, but in a sick part of it.
Pray for me as I pray for you both
In Him
SBForget who actually wrote it.
The historical and theological explanation is what is important. And it is irrefutable.
The fact is that Metropolitian Vitaly was not senile and that he escaped the manipulation and sinister carry on at Madison Avenue. I have talked to people who were in Mansonville, or who talked to him on the phone there and I trust them (one is a senior Russian Prince). That however is besides the point.
Both the 7th Ecumenical Council and 15 th canon of the first and second Council of Constantinople which Metropolitian Kyprian bases himself on refute his novelities.
You have also offered no defense of the canonical basis of your Synod and as you yourself said "schism is worse than heresy".
Theophan.
It is true and I agree with you again. But, also for "rescue" to Met. Vitaly from the Lavrites have been fundamental the collaboration of some members of ROAC as Protopriest Vladimir Shishkoff or even the selfsame Met Valentine.
BTW. I should also admit that I like your "provocative" style, maybe because you are Irish and I have quite Irish blood in my veins. 
Priest Siluan wrote:GOCTheophan wrote:benjaminw1 wrote:Sigh!
There is no point in arguing, there is none so blind as those that will not see.
A number of living and reposed personages in your above two statements have axes to grind, very old politics to play, pride to follow and people to manipulate (and blank bits of paper to sign).
But no names no packdrill, as my old Colour Serjeant used to say.
I am in the Church, as I am sure you and Cyprian are, but in a sick part of it.
Pray for me as I pray for you both
In Him
SBForget who actually wrote it.
The historical and theological explanation is what is important. And it is irrefutable.
The fact is that Metropolitian Vitaly was not senile and that he escaped the manipulation and sinister carry on at Madison Avenue. I have talked to people who were in Mansonville, or who talked to him on the phone there and I trust them (one is a senior Russian Prince). That however is besides the point.
Both the 7th Ecumenical Council and 15 th canon of the first and second Council of Constantinople which Metropolitian Kyprian bases himself on refute his novelities.
You have also offered no defense of the canonical basis of your Synod and as you yourself said "schism is worse than heresy".
Theophan.
It is true and I agree with you again. But, also for "rescue" to Met. Vitaly from the Lavrites have been fundamental the collaboration of some members of ROAC as Protopriest Vladimir Shishkoff or even the selfsame Met Valentine.
BTW. I should also admit that I like your "provocative" style, maybe because you are Irish and I have quite Irish blood in my veins.
Father Bless!
What you say about ROAC people being crucial in Metropolitian Vitaly's escape is very true. It is very saddening that they couldnt have put canonical or whatever considerations aside and united with ROAC seeing as they (ROCiE) shared the same Faith.
Confession of Faith is more important than canonicity. However Met Kyprian has through out his career shown a schismatic mentality, yet he turns around and attacks the Old Calendarists for having such, even making out that his group is the most important in Greece when clearly it is not.
My great-grandmother was Spanish, my family puts my "provactive style" down to that.
Theophan.
Dear Thephan:
God may bless you!
GOCTheophan wrote:What you say about ROAC people being crucial in Metropolitian Vitaly's escape is very true. It is very saddening that they couldnt have put canonical or whatever considerations aside and united with ROAC seeing as they (ROCiE) shared the same Faith.
Yes, it is very sad. IMHO, much had to do those layman (maybe mainly a woman), Vl. Varnava (now he "returned" with Lavr) and some priests who controlled Mansonville and influenced on Met. Vitaly + Blessed Memory. As a prove about the above-mentioned , now we can see with much pain and sadness what is happening in ROCiE without Met. Vitaly
GOCTheophan wrote:Confession of Faith is more important than canonicity.
You are right. But I add: There is not any canocity if there is not true Faith.
GOCTheophan wrote:However Met Kyprian has through out his career shown a schismatic mentality, yet he turns around and attacks the Old Calendarists for having such, even making out that his group is the most important in Greece when clearly it is not.
All the true Old Calendarist in Greece knows who is in fact Met. Kyprianos and his Synod which it was created by him and other bishops (it is interesting that they were not Greek) as Giovanni of Sardinia, Evlogy of Milan et al. And the origin of the Synod in Resitencia nothing has to do with the true GOC. For that reason the gruop of Met. Kyprianos only is not heretical, but rather it is also uncanonical and without linking with the Historical GOC
GOCTheophan wrote:My great-grandmother was Spanish, my family puts my "provactive style" down to that.
Oh, maybe that is even a problem more serious
Keep me in your holy prayers.
With love in Christ
Yours
Priest Siluan